Intel to Drop 915G Chipsets

Big Dog...

While I want you to respect your NDA, let me ask you this.

 

Will the hardware set up be one so that Windows can run on it, but it will be required for OS X to run? Meaning that the OS will be restricted at the hardware level?

 

Is that a question you can answer?

My opinion about the reason this particular hardware was used in the transition kit is the following:

 

1) I do not see the reason Apple would need a better (and more expensive) hardware solution regarding this transition, just for the developers to do some code recompilation. If the apps work with the 915 chipset and the accompanied integrated graphics, they will also work with any other graphics card or chipset, as long as a supported driver is provided.

 

 

2) The Transition kit costs 999 dollars. Apple chose the 915 chipset. They knew it would be out of the production line in a short while, so they got this particular set of hardware for less money. It is just fine for testing the compatibility between the OSX86 operating system and the developers' OSX86 converted applications. Why sell a transition kit with the newest "i995" chipset and the newest ATI or NVidia graphics adapter? The transition kit would cost 1.999 dollars, that could {censored} off the developers. They are already forced to spend an extra 999 per machine, because of a decision that Apple made. And there are software development companies that may not afford giving away 1999 dollars, just because of a vision that Jobbs had.

 

On the other hand, it is very convenient that Apple went with the 915. This means that every newer versions will HAVE TO BE "8086" compatible and therefore there will technically always be a way hackers could do a workaround for it to run, not only on Apples eventually custom made hardware, but also on every 8086 (call it bios modification, system boot or device driver hack).

 

 

I think that if Apple goes with either custom made hardware or with standard x86, they will always have hackers on their back. Apple entered a point with no return. The key to the future of OSX86 on x86 hardware, will ALWAYS be the drivers!!

And something else that crossed my mind...

Apple WILL be using custom made motherboards.

I can't imagine an Apple with serial RS-232 interface, internal floppy interfaces or PS/2 ports... do you?

So Intel must already be designing custom made motherboards, ones that do not look like average PC motherboards. So why not add some extra hack-proof security into them???

 

Maybe it will take hackers about a year... maybe less...

And something else that crossed my mind...

Apple WILL be using custom made motherboards.

I can't imagine an Apple with serial RS-232 interface or PS/2 ports... do you?

So Intel must already be designing custom made motherboards, ones that do not look like average PC motherboards. So why not add some extra hack-proof security into them???

 

Maybe it will take hackers about a year... maybe less...

 

Belive me... Intel will not be the one to design motherboards for Apple Mactels.

And those PS2 COM and LPT ports are controled by an add-on chip... legacy support is not integrated in current chipsets. Apple will just design their own motherboards without legacy support. Like Abit did on some motherboards... And they will add everything that will be necessary to protect OS X from running on "biege boxes".

Funny. This chip runs Apple's GUI smooth, as Microsoft's doesn't. Reminds me of Steve Jobs saying how important hiring the best people in the world is.

And Seeyou, there is no such thing as hack-proof security

 

I can't resist replying to this. The assertion that everything is hackable is correct. What we have to consider is just how feasible an attack might be. For example, ciphers used for heavy-duty encryption will always be vulnerable to attack but they are designed to be computationally infeasible to break. What that means in layman's terms is that if you put all the computing power in the world (!) to the task it could still take centuries to determine the key.

 

In this instance we're talking hardware, and that's a whole different ballgame. I don't want to drone on but if you want to know how effective hardware protection can be, I recommend reading Andrew Huang's dissertation on the X-Box. Andrew worked at MIT's Artificial Intelligence Laboratory so we can assume he's pretty bright. Using state of the art hardware he cracked the X-Box encryption (for the uninitiated the X-Box is more or less an x86 PC with a few mods) but he acknowledges that Microsoft could have made the job nigh-on impossible with a bit more thought.

 

The Intel Macs will be x86 PCs too. They could use all the lessons of the X-Box in their final release and pose a serious, if not impossible, challenge to the hackers. Personally I don't believe they will go to such lengths, and even if they do some joker with a microtome and a scanning electron microscope will probably read out the bits from the mask ROMs and provide a hack eventually. Always assuming there's no IBM 4758 in there. If there is, to quote a favourite movie - "Game over, Man!" ( http://www-03.ibm.com/security/cryptocards/pcicc.shtml ). Encrypted bootstrapping and OSX-specific registers in the southbridge would provide the desired security and still allow MS operating systems to run without hindrance. I'm sure Apple have thought of all these things. Whether they want to go to such (relatively expensive) lengths is at this stage open to speculation.

 

But all of this is off-topic for this thread. I just thought it worth waking a few people up to the possibility that the task may be much, much more difficult than we thought. That said, we will always be able to BUILD an OSX-based lookalike and workalike operating system from Darwin and the majority of Apple's official OS distribution, and I think that's probably the way things will go. Loading an Apple disc into a PC may never be a real option.

 

Andrew's paper here - http://web.mit.edu/bunnie/www/proj/anatak/AIM-2002-008.pdf

Enjoy!

...but in this case it should not mean much to this community as Apple will likely not do any to interfere with people wishing to run Windows on Apple hardware. So, whatever chipset Apple uses, it should be not particularly radical, but rather compatible with mainstream hardware.

If memory serves it indeed was stated that Apple wouldn't stop people from installing Windows on their x86 Mac's.

Besides, will the new Intel Desktop Mac really rely on integrated graphics? The current G5s need top-end nVidia or ATI cards to drive a couple of big displays and plenty of power-users won't want to throw away their expensive LCDs when they buy a new Mac.

&

discontinue? well wtf are 3rd party video cards for? no one (who uses 3d acceleration) buys a motherboard expecting to use the onboard video card. i dont get it? i barley paid 80 bucks for my 915g board so no big deal.

Agreed. 3rd party GPU's are the road for Apple to compete with Windows in the long run as a good gaming platform. Fps craves for Nvidia/Ati instead of onboard Intel. But may Apple doesn't target for that?

My quick take on this - Apple shipped a development system with a specific chipset. They had to choose something, but my view is that their choice wasn't all that significant. They could have chosen any one of dozens of solutions. The fact that we're all running OSx86 on all sorts of hardware suggests something, doesn't it?

I agree to that. Why would Apple include support for all sorts of different hardware in os X x86, if they have a one-configuration-only setup in mind?

As for the custom hardware comment... I am bound by an NDA, but I can tell you that Apple intends the hardware to run Windows.

So Apple keeps the option to install Windows on their new x86 Mac's possible (and thus keep their configuration compatible with it)...to be able to make users make the switch vice-versa when the time comes?

Will the hardware set up be one so that Windows can run on it, but it will be required for OS X to run? Meaning that the OS will be restricted at the hardware level?

As in some kind of advanced referral to the current TPM integrated in future updates of os X? That would make sense; you need the hardware for os X (because it is programmed to check for certain parts), but it won't interfere with the installment of Windows on it, because that doesn't care for which hardware is installed or not...makes sense to me. Only question remains: if peaple can make anti-TPM patches (Maxxuss) to enable installment on non-IntelMac harware now, what keeps them from doning so in future versions?

The assertion that everything (wiebeest:meaning software?) is hackable is correct. In this instance we're talking hardware, and that's a whole different ballgame. I don't want to drone on but if you want to know how effective hardware protection can be, I recommend reading Andrew Huang's dissertation on the X-Box.

The Intel Macs will be x86 PCs too ... Always assuming there's no IBM 4758 in there. If there is, to quote a favourite movie - "Game over, Man!" Encrypted bootstrapping and OSX-specific registers in the southbridge

Considering this is publically available knowledge...what's to stop Apple to include these nastiness? Try: the ambition to replace Microsofts monopoly as mainstream x86 os in the long run

(which isn't nessecary a bad idea... )

Just a question. I just ordered a pentium 4 630 and an albatron 915g board. I bought this exlusively as a WINDOWS upgrade but with a little playing around with osx86. I was only planning on using the gma 900 for a short while before upgrading to a 6x00 pci-express line up cards. How does this affect me as a windows user? If anything at all. Also, how would this affect me as an osx86 tester?

I think a lot of you missed a point to be had.

 

The only reasonably useful OSx86 driver *NOW* is the GMA900 one. When OS X Intel is released, perhaps a year from now, drivers will only be written for new video cards (retail and Apple OEM), not the old {censored} you're using now.

 

I suppose one thing I can do is keep the PCI-e 16x slot open until we know what cards will have drivers and support the newest crappiest version of windoze.

This isn't anything new. It's been known for a while now. You guys should check sites like Anandtech and Arstechnica for these things.

 

They are PC sites but do a pretty good job with the Mac as well.

Just a question. I just ordered a pentium 4 630 and an albatron 915g board. I bought this exlusively as a WINDOWS upgrade but with a little playing around with osx86. I was only planning on using the gma 900 for a short while before upgrading to a 6x00 pci-express line up cards. How does this affect me as a windows user? If anything at all. Also, how would this affect me as an osx86 tester?

 

well, i bought a 915GUX board and a celeron D, and played around in osX for a bit... then i got a bfg 6600GT card for the pci-e slot and only get vesa 3.0 so - no acceleration, however it doesn't cause any problems either. Coming from the mac i never realized how behind they are as far as 3d and gaming go... oh well windoze has one practical use: gaming.

Coming from the mac i never realized how behind they are as far as 3d and gaming go... oh well windoze has one practical use: gaming.

 

 

First off, what did you think people were using a Mac for? While there are some games made for Apple....lets look at blizzard....how many hybrid cds did they release in the past including both x86 and mac versions of thier games on 1 cd ? Quite a few

 

The fact remains though that a large majority of people that use apple computers arent gaming. Theyre doing real work. As far as windows being a gaming platform....it kinda has no choice but to be a gaming platform. Last time I checked we didnt have that many choices as far as what to play games on. Sure we can all go out and buy shiney new 360's when they come out...but consoles are in a whole differant league then pcs. Gates and Sindows found a niche in the market. Thats all. Dont get me wrong....Windows is a good OS...sometimes...more so when it feels like behaving...but I have always liked mac more. Yes they had quite a few hurdles in the past....but they got there finally when they hit OSX on the market.

 

Thats my 2 cents....

IMO i think M$ is doing the hardware companies a favor but not us consumers because it seems M$ is trying to dig out of every one who has a Windows PC to spend money on it, or maybe Windows Vista might be making a new Blue screen of Death with all the eye candy