God, why do people believe in the idea?

[U.C.]

I do believe in God, Science, Apple and a whole lotta things. I also have hope. I hope that my future be better. I hope i will get an iMac soon. Also I have faith. I have faith in Steve Jobs, in my neighbor, in my friends. But what I don't have faith is on Religon. I just cannot have faith in what some book or some guru says. I believe in God (group of aliens, mother earth or just some mystical force) and do pray to him (I prefer to think of God as a single entity which may or may not be male). I just don't show this belief in a way that some one tells me to.

[killbot1000]

why people do believe in God?

 

I wanted to ask you a question. Don't to believe in God? This is the part where you would say " I don't believe in anything"? Right?But this is where you are wrong, everyone believes in something. You believe in science, medicine, technology and such things want, you can see. But some people are believing in God, some of them believe in extraterrestrial, force fields and so on and so on.

 

So, if you can believe in things you can't touch and see, why can't people believe something they can't see?

In any case we all are at the same level. And we are all the same.

 

Except for predates is from planet Pluto!.

 

:-)

 

You didn't really make very much sense here. "Don't to believe in god?". Also, its great that you know exactly what I am going to say before I say it (sarcasm). I do believe in things, I really do, but believing in people, science, and technology is way different than believing in some sort of supernatural deity, nobody seems to get that technology, science, and people are tangible, and an abstract supernatural deity isn't... Seriously people, quit trying to say that believing in other people is the same as believing in god...because its not, and thats quite frankly an old and tired argument that doesn't really prove anything...

[gwprod12]

Gods make uncertain allies. Is it really responsible to have the position that God will makes sure everything is okay? Or is it wiser to take your own precautions?

 

If Paradise awaits those who believe, then why try to extend your life? Why live at all? Dante's Inferno tells us that suicides are doomed to the 7th level of hell, but active suicide and passive unconcern are two different things. Instead of looking both ways when you cross the street, isnt the logical Christian thing to stare straight forward? Fear of death is the ultimate motivator to religion. Name a religion that does not promise an afterlife, and I will call it a religion with no followers. To many people, even the firey torments of Hell are preferable to the end of existence. The Buddhists believe that the soul ascends to a non-material plane. The Christians, Jews and Muslims believe that believing in their respective deities and doing good works puts them at God's table. The Pharaonic egyptians believed the same.

 

If eternal life was assured on the physical plane, all religion would crumble into dust.

[sHARD>>]

Let's throw a few nice wrenches in here, based on previous commentary:

 

1) Agnostics are the only ones without faith.

 

2) Believing in god doesn't mean belief that this influences everyday life (Diests, such as our friend Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers)

 

And finally a favorite of mine that no one ever bothers to consider:

 

3) Is it possible that the Earth was either a) created millions of years ago by god in order for evolution to occur according to his rules (hell, the bibles been wrong as {censored} before), or the Earth was created when the bible claims, with science and exploration of our natural word (including theories of evolution) as a gift to humanity, and thus nothing to quell?

[gwprod12]

As a general rule, they are ambivalent towards belief without objective evidence. (agnostics)

 

As a general rule, Atheists have faith that no supernatural beings exist.

 

As hidden beings or forces cannot be opened to objective inquiry, there is no rational way of knowing whether or not they exist.

Thus faith that they do, or faith that they dont, are both unsupportable.

[sHARD>>]

As a general rule, they are ambivalent towards belief without objective evidence. (agnostics)

 

As a general rule, Atheists have faith that no supernatural beings exist.

 

As hidden beings or forces cannot be opened to objective inquiry, there is no rational way of knowing whether or not they exist.

Thus faith that they do, or faith that they dont, are both unsupportable.

 

See, this is where I get confused during these "debates".

 

These "wrenches" offer alternatives to radical points of view: "Atheists are based on 100% fact!", "Everyone who believes in a god believes god influences daily life", and "Creation must be no science and no evolution!".

 

Instead it's assumed I'm making points against atheism. I was born into a Catholic family yet raised without a Sunday in church. Somehow, however, most of my friends are deeply religious. On the contrary however, I occasionally have a fun time arguing religion with them. Don't assume anything about my belief system, because you'd be wrong.

[gwprod12]

The facts are... that there is no way of knowing if God exists (for sure). Assuming a seemingly omnipotent being with wide-ranging powers were to make themselves evident, it still wouldnt be real evidence of a God, just of a really powerful being. God is inscrutable, as Jews and Christians say.

 

There are two (to my mind) mutually exclusive assertions about God. 1) That the universe, or reality in general is ordered according to God's design, or, is a function of God's powers. 2) Human beings, at the very least, have a free will, to make the decisions that they want to make. Either one of these assertions is false. If the universe is a function of God's will, then free will is constrained, and is only an illusion. If free will is absolute, then the universe must, by default, be unplanned.

 

God cannot be both micromanaging the universe and letting it unfold as it likes at the same time.

 

I still believe that God is imaginary, however.

[killbot1000]

See this is why atheism makes sense to me. I have not seen anything in the world that shows ANY evidence for a god, therefore it is only logical to not have any belief toward one.

 

One might say "well thats just faith that a deity DOESN'T exist" but this is not always true."

 

In the case of me, yes I know that I cant prove a god doesn't exist, but there is no reason to believe that a deity exists, so I just DON'T believe that a deity exists, unless I saw proof to the contrary.

 

 

I can break it down to a more ridiculous argument to make the concept make more sense.

 

Example:

 

Person 1: I believe that Purple Sock's control the physics of the universe!

 

Person 2: I don't believe that, that doesn't make any sense, where's your proof?

 

Person 1: Where's your proof that Purple Socks that control the physics of the universe DON'T exist?

 

Person 2: Well, I don't have any proof, I just don't believe it because there's no evidence to support it.

 

Person 1: Well you see? Thats just faith that Purple socks that control the physics of the universe Don't exist...you're no better than I am at arguing your point.

 

 

My point is that nothing LOGICALLY points to there being a god, so why believe it until proof is shown?

 

Also, as a second point, the burden of evidence is on the person trying to PROVE something exists, not on the people saying it doesn't exist. You can't prove the nonexistence of something. Therefore a person who thinks that something IS there must prove that it is there, and its nobody's obligation to believe them until this is done.

Edited February 7, 2007 by killbot1000

[gwprod12]

There is a difference between believing there is no God and not believing in God. Though granted, in common usage, they are similar. The same is true with disliking chocolate as opposed to not liking chocolate. Not liking implies dislike when it is, in fact, an ambivalence towards chocolate. So, not believing in God could be an ambivalence towards God, as opposed to believing in no God. I believe in no God. I have great faith that God is not real. As opposed to simply not knowing, or considering the topic irrelevant.

[killbot1000]

See, I take a slightly different approach, while I cant prove the nonexistence of god, it would be presumptuous for me to say "There is no god" but I am entitled to my opinion, and my opinion (what I think vs what I "know") is that there is no god. But that doesn't mean I have faith in NO DEITY, it just means that I don't think theres a god, I am always open to the possibility of being wrong, however unlikely I feel that is. I actually consider myself halfway between atheism and agnosticism. I think its called weak atheism.

[m@rco]

My point is that nothing LOGICALLY points to there being a god, so why believe it until proof is shown?

I believe in God. I think there are enough logical proofs that God exists.

Look at the universe:

1. there are a lot of galaxies out there, only particular dispositions make the birth of life possible
   
2. in our galaxy life is possible only in a certain zone: see galactic habitable zone (GHZ)
   
3. in our solar system life is possible only in a certain zone: see circumstellar habitable zone (CHZ)
   

Would you call this an incredible coincidence?

 

Human beings are capable to study deeply the universe and understand so much over their own origin, this is for me a very good and logical proof.

 

btw give a look at Gödel's ontological proof.

[B612]

Atheism is a faith.

Belief is a faith.

Once I was discussing about this theme with a scientist (he is an astrophysicist) and he said to me that regardless the many facts that could make one believe that God exists, he didn't believe.

So I replied that regardless the many facts that could make one believe God doesn't exist, I believe. He believed God doesn't exist and I believed the contrary.

Even though I am mostly agnostic, I said so because I wanted him to realize how his position was exactly equal to the one of a believer.

 

etc. etc. we could talk about it forever, but never reach a definitive truth.

[killbot1000]

I believe in God. I think there are enough logical proofs that God exists.

Look at the universe:

1. there are a lot of galaxies out there, only particular dispositions make the birth of life possible
   
2. in our galaxy life is possible only in a certain zone: see galactic habitable zone (GHZ)
   
3. in our solar system life is possible only in a certain zone: see circumstellar habitable zone (CHZ)
   

Would you call this an incredible coincidence?

 

Human beings are capable to study deeply the universe and understand so much over their own origin, this is for me a very good and logical proof.

 

btw give a look at Gödel's ontological proof.

 

Theres no way we can know that for sure, it is arrogant to say so (that earthlike life, is the only life out there). I like how when everybody thinks of life, they think it has to be our kind of life, but it doesn't, we might find a species of pure energy, or a 13 foot tall lobster creature that breathes methane, We cant go to anywhere else in the galaxy besides our own moon, how can we know which areas of the galaxy are ABLE to have life or not? What a crock of {censored}!

 

 

And so what if this is true, it does not point to the existence of god, are people stupid or something, heres your statement:

 

 

1. there are a lot of galaxies out there, only particular dispositions make the birth of life possible

2. in our galaxy life is possible only in a certain zone

3. in our solar system life is possible only in a certain zone

--------------------------------------------------------------------

4.Therefore god exists!

 

if you still dont get it, lets do it this way.

 

1. There are a lot of A's out there, only B makes C possible

2. only D makes C possible

3. in E, only C is possible

3. Therefore, F exists...

 

Do you see how ridiculous this sounds? It's not even a valid argument, please take a logic class or something before you try to argue the existence of god.

Edited February 7, 2007 by killbot1000

[gwprod12]

I'd like to point out in reference to habitable zones for life, that that only means life that is based around the same parameters as life on earth. So, more accurately, it should be that life on earth would find only earthlike regions habitable. Since no extra-terrestrial life has ever been discovered, a blanket statement to the effect that all life is earthlike is unsupportable. All known life is earthlike as it is all on earth.

[gameguy132]

I was talking about logic, not evolution, but since that can of worms has to be opened up. You say there is NO evidence. Well, heres some.

Evolution of the horse:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_horse

 

I have many more bits of evidence if you want it, this is just an example of an animal for which we have a near complete fossil record, given we cant base an entire theory on one animal, were not, this is just one example. But when you say there is NO evidence, you are sorely mistaken, in the field of biology theres actually too much evidence, the problem is that when we are digging up fossils, its hard to tell whether they belong to one species or another because the change is so gradual. Also, there are not billions of perfectly preserved fossils waiting for us underneath the ground, many of the ones we find are partial, etc.

 

In any case, evolution could have a few holes in it, I'm not denying that, however, just because something has a few holes in it, doesn't make it wrong. And if you knew anything about science, and knew what a theory actually means in the context OF science, then we wouldn't be having this conversation (with science, even atomic structure [ie protons, electrons, etc.] are theories) so please, learn what a theory actually is before you start spouting off about things you know nothing about.

 

and no, I don't BELIEVE in the evolution theory, right now the evidence points to that theory being the most sound, as soon as the evidence changes, my opinion changes, simple...

 

I'd like to see you come up with ANY shred of evidence that man came from dust, and women came from men's rib (haha what a load of {censored}). And Don't you dare point out the bible (or Qu'ran or whatever) as proof, because its not, I could read a star trek book and say that the starship enterprise really existed and that their journeys were completely real.

 

Atleast Oryhara's arguments were valid and coherent, and worth arguing about...

 

but where did the animal the horse evolved from come from an evolved animal? where did that come from? an evolved animal maybe? its just a chain, an animal had to come in somewhere so whered that animal that didnt evolve come from? thats what i meant by theres no evidence, because the so called evidence comes from an inference that there was an animal to evolve FROM, it cant be evidence.

[gwprod12]

are you saying it is possible for animal A to evolve into animal B, but it is not possible for animal C to evolve from animal A?

 

or are you saying that even if all life forms on earth evolved from a common ancestor, that the common ancestor had to come from somewhere?

 

All lifeforms on earth have a common ancestor at some point. The scenario is very simple. Multicellular lifeforms are merely colonies of related cells. A cell is nothing more than a self-replicating machine capable of taking energy and materials from the outside, excreting byproducts and splitting. A cell is made up of molecular structures that are also self-replicating. The smallest organic self-replicating machine is an amino acid. Amino acids arent so complicated that they could not emerge randomly.

 

One might argue that it's not likely, but it's definitely possible.

[BlackShadowWolf]

Hmm interesting topic, must answer

 

I personally see nothing wrong with believing in 'a god'. It can help give meaning to someones life, like theres some great force guiding them etc. It only gets out of hand when you obsess over it and start doing things that are just wrong to just about everyone (like holy wars).

 

For me personally, I do not believe in the Christian god, as I have grown to believe that the human race is a product of evolution, that we did evolve over millions of years. The creation of the universe is a difficult topic to think about whether or not 'a god' did it. I guess you could argue for hours and hours on it.

 

Honestly, yes I do believe in higher life. But its an obscure belief system that unfortunately Christianinity would label me as 'Demon lover' or something. Not to be generalizing too much, but Christiananity does seem to be intolerant of other religions, or perhaps its the people.

 

If anyone is wants to get a different perspective on things, Id be glad to tell my beliefs, I just dont say them on a whim :=/.

[zultdush]

without religion we can have a purpose and meaning.

 

I know that when i die, i will blow out like a candle and cease to exist. however, there are the deeds ive done, and the few drops that Ive added to the ocean of human knowledge. those will live on for me, forever.

 

I hope that someday in the future, we can all set aside differences, religions, faiths, and gods, to work towards one thing: progress. we can do anything we put our minds to, but as long as we keep worrying about an afterlife, we'll never work towards a common goal.

 

its not where i came from, or how i got here thats important; its what can I accomplish while Im here, and who can I help... think like that and you wont need a god, an afterlife, or a religion.

Edited February 8, 2007 by zultdush

[m@rco]

Theres no way we can know that for sure, it is arrogant to say so (that earthlike life, is the only life out there). I like how when everybody thinks of life, they think it has to be our kind of life, but it doesn't, we might find a species of pure energy, or a 13 foot tall lobster creature that breathes methane, We cant go to anywhere else in the galaxy besides our own moon, how can we know which areas of the galaxy are ABLE to have life or not? What a crock of {censored}!

And so what if this is true, it does not point to the existence of god, are people stupid or something, heres your statement:

1. there are a lot of galaxies out there, only particular dispositions make the birth of life possible

2. in our galaxy life is possible only in a certain zone

3. in our solar system life is possible only in a certain zone

--------------------------------------------------------------------

4.Therefore god exists!

 

if you still dont get it, lets do it this way.

 

1. There are a lot of A's out there, only B makes C possible

2. only D makes C possible

3. in E, only C is possible

3. Therefore, F exists...

 

Do you see how ridiculous this sounds? It's not even a valid argument, please take a logic class or something before you try to argue the existence of god.

So just because you talk of logic class: the title of the thread is "...why do people beleive in the idea?". You're actually stating here that God is surely an idea. So you don't want really to discuss. Don't talk to me of arrogance.

 

My point is that the existence of life (in general, not only earthlike) can not be a coincidence or fortuity, and I see some facts (such as the high concentration of "coincidences" that make life on the earth possible) as proof of this point. If life isn't a fortuity then it must be created from something. I call this something God.

 

You cannot expect to understand something without making (or trying to make) an experience of it (ie only reading topics in a forum). So if you are interested in having a proof of God's existence, go out there and meet people who believe in God. Ask them why they do it. Live with them. I believe in God because I met people who fascinated me and theese people believed in God. Actually the reason of this fascination was God, but I understood that after a long time being together with theese people.

[gwprod12]

People believe in God because they're ignorant. They're afraid of their ignorance, but instead of trying to correct it, they wallow in it.

 

In fact, I'll eat my shoe if I find someone with a profound faith in God who isnt completely ignorant on the merits of the case.

 

Okay, so I wont eat my shoe. But it would be nice to have a religionist who isnt mentally handicapped join in this discussion.

 

If I dont get one soon, I may have to resort to finding arguments for God myself.

 

Parameters for arguments are: Find a notion of deity that is logically provable and not inconsistent with the observable universe.

Edited February 8, 2007 by gwprod12

[B612]

People believe in God because they're ignorant. They're afraid of their ignorance, but instead of trying to correct it, they wallow in it.

 

In fact, I'll eat my shoe if I find someone with a profound faith in God who isnt completely ignorant on the merits of the case.

 

Okay, so I wont eat my shoe. But it would be nice to have a religionist who isnt mentally handicapped join in this discussion.

 

If I dont get one soon, I may have to resort to finding arguments for God myself.

 

Parameters for arguments are: Find a notion of deity that is logically provable and not inconsistent with the observable universe.

 

I don't think it is a question of ignorance. I would rather say it is a question of arrogance. I mean that normally (of course I don't say "always") who believes that God doesn't exist is very full of himself and doesn't accept the fact that we are just a piece of dust and there can be something or someone superior to us.

If I say so, that's because I personally know many scientists (I mean very important ones) that are believer without being obsessed by religion nor "religionist".

I don't want to take any position, because in fact I am not a certain believer. I just wanted to suggest not to be so certain about something that cannot be certain.

[BRP]

A "religionist" who isn't "mentally handicapped" wouldn't join the discussion, on grounds that they'd just get pissed off by people who are more stubborn than they are, and insist on making snide remarks to the effect that people who believe in God are retarded.

 

Internet argument, special olympics, etc.

[killbot1000]

without religion we can have a purpose and meaning.

 

I know that when i die, i will blow out like a candle and cease to exist. however, there are the deeds ive done, and the few drops that Ive added to the ocean of human knowledge. those will live on for me, forever.

 

I hope that someday in the future, we can all set aside differences, religions, faiths, and gods, to work towards one thing: progress. we can do anything we put our minds to, but as long as we keep worrying about an afterlife, we'll never work towards a common goal.

 

its not where i came from, or how i got here thats important; its what can I accomplish while Im here, and who can I help... think like that and you wont need a god, an afterlife, or a religion.

 

This is how I feel 100%, you say it so much more eloquently than I do though .

 

I don't think it is a question of ignorance. I would rather say it is a question of arrogance. I mean that normally (of course I don't say "always") who believes that God doesn't exist is very full of himself and doesn't accept the fact that we are just a piece of dust and there can be something or someone superior to us.

If I say so, that's because I personally know many scientists (I mean very important ones) that are believer without being obsessed by religion nor "religionist".

I don't want to take any position, because in fact I am not a certain believer. I just wanted to suggest not to be so certain about something that cannot be certain.

 

I'm not questioning that there is most likely something out there that is vastly superior to us, something that may be omnipotent, etc. But that doesn't mean they are personal, and that doesn't mean they are god, it would only appear that way to us. Maybe gods evolved too, maybe one day, our species is destined to be gods.

 

I mean, if one of us went back in time with our modern technology, many would think we were gods too, but that doesn't make it so.

 

I am not arrogant enough to say that there ISN'T any superior thing to us out there, but superiority does not mean in any way that they are god, are we gods to squirrels? Most certainly not.

 

What I honestly think is that people are just way to quick to jump to god (ie "I dont know how this works...IT MUST BE GOD") its just kind of like a blanket statement to make them feel better or something.

 

Im just tired of seeing the same arguments over and over again, the same circular arguments that don't prove a thing. I say "idea of god" because nobody have given me any kind of coherent response to the question (not that they have to or anything though.) This argument is used most of all, and its....stupid.

 

(1) The universe is very complex and VERY improbable. So improbable, in fact, that it could not have come about on its own.

(2) There must exist an EVEN MORE complex and improbable being who is capable of designing the universe.

(3) Even though this being is more complex and improbable than the universe itself (which is so complex and improbable that it could not have come about on its own), the designer of the universe DID come about on its own. Even though it's more complex. And improbable. It makes sense. Really.

(4) This being is God.

--------------------------

(5) Therefore, God exists.

 

Does anybody realize how ridiculous this argument sounds?

 

Again, I cant stress this point enough, the only reason why our universe is unlikely is because IT TURNED OUT THE WAY IT DID. if it turned out differently, if we evolved on a purple planet where we breathed methane and had 18 tentacles, we would still be saying "alsdjofijasfdgsfdgsfdgsdfgsfdgsdfgsdfggfgjmjkil;khgfdshgjh444332 (translation: the universe is so unlikely, it CANT be a coincidence)"

[gwprod12]

Agreed

 

In reference to ignorance and stupidity... maybe those statements are too strong, but how can you have a rational discussion about something when the opposition to your position knows almost nothing about the facts?

 

It's like debating gravity with someone who says it doesnt make sense because why would the sun revolve around the earth if gravity were factual?

 

Or debating evolution with someone who says it cant have happened because monkeys would be metamorphosing into humans even now if it were true.

[LifeDroidGenesis7007]

(1) The universe is very complex and VERY improbable. So improbable, in fact, that it could not have come about on its own.

(2) There must exist an EVEN MORE complex and improbable being who is capable of designing the universe.

(3) Even though this being is more complex and improbable than the universe itself (which is so complex and improbable that it could not have come about on its own), the designer of the universe DID come about on its own. Even though it's more complex. And improbable. It makes sense. Really.

(4) This being is God.

--------------------------

(5) Therefore, God exists.

 

1. Everything that follows the rules of physics (which is everything tangible including yourself) has a schematic that can be applied (formulas and theories and such).

2. Every schematic is constructed.

3. Every complex system has a schematic that can be applied.

4. The universe is a complex system.

5. The universe has an applicable schemtic.

-------------------------------------------

6. The universe was constructed.

 

The universe follows a set of rules, we study these rules and apply them in our everyday lives. Whenever a person uses logic or figures how much change is due to them, they are following a set of agreed upon rules that everybody follows. Other rules that we all follow are physical rules concerning how we move. In our lives everything can be calculated BEFORE it happens. Very complicated physical processes can be known before they even happen. There is a complex system here that sets of schematics apply to, just like all of our inventions and ideas. Except that these rules go beyond even us and apply to every speck of anything in the entire universe. These rules where here before us, and they are unbreakable. Because they are unbreakable we must follow them. Other things that must follow rules are robots and crazy machines and computers. They follow the rules that were here long before people ever where. It was constructed because it is a complicated process with a very clear and applicable set of rules that existed before we did. We simply translated the rules into a language easier to speak for us. But the language of life is clear, unbreakable, complex and construcuted from a source of rules. It does not have to be a God or a thing that constructed us, it is simply the rules that construcuted us. Without the present and exact set of rules of physics and reality that we now know the universe would have been different. We were constructed by the rules that govern our very actions. The rules are the schematic to the complex system that we know as life. A life constructed by the very rules that govern its movements.