Clover vs Ozmosis...

[overdriver79]

OK. I know that the title might seem like comparing bananas to potatoes but spare me a moment. I am running Sierra on my Hackintosh (used "the unsupported way" for that). But after I found this forum, I realised I can and should go as Vanilla as possible and also try to stay as vanilla as possible in order to keep updating to the next releases smooth. That's what I'll do on my next day off but till then I fail to see how Ozmosis can help me with that. Sure I can inject FakeSMC and my 811 kext in there but isn't preferable to go with Clover and take advantage of its ability to patch vanilla kexts on the fly? Or am I missing something?

[frankiee]

Imho "vanilla" has nothing to do with the specific boot loader / method, but more about a minimal and lean configuration and a "clean" startup volume / OS X folder, i.e. not modified and littered with tons of hack specific stuff. I also regard using a good ACPI configuration as more "clean" than using lots of kexts & patches instead, but YMMV. Anyways, there is no _really_ "clean" way to start OS X for hackintoshes anyways, that only works with real macs! As for Clover vs Oszmosis, I do not see _any_ advantage for using Ozmosis. That starts with having to mess with your BIOS, and ends with less flexibility and - as you said - not being able to use clover patches - which is is turn way more clean (imho) than patching OS kexts directly. Basically, I think your config can be considered clean when you don't change even a bit of the original system files (which can be done, at least I do it). But even then, there is almost always something that is not really "clean" and 100% perfect. For example I am unable to fully use SIP due to some AptioFix issues. So, you have to live with some more or less minor issues I guess. Trying to minimize them is the key here.

[overdriver79]

Imho "vanilla" has nothing to do with the specific boot loader / method, but more about a minimal and lean configuration and a "clean" startup volume / OS X folder, i.e. not modified and littered with tons of hack specific stuff. I also regard using a good ACPI configuration as more "clean" than using lots of kexts & patches instead, but YMMV. Anyways, there is no _really_ "clean" way to start OS X for hackintoshes anyways, that only works with real macs! As for Clover vs Oszmosis, I do not see _any_ advantage for using Ozmosis. That starts with having to mess with your BIOS, and ends with less flexibility and - as you said - not being able to use clover patches - which is is turn way more clean (imho) than patching OS kexts directly. Basically, I think your config can be considered clean when you don't change even a bit of the original system files (which can be done, at least I do it). But even then, there is almost always something that is not really "clean" and 100% perfect. For example I am unable to fully use SIP due to some AptioFix issues. So, you have to live with some more or less minor issues I guess. Trying to minimize them is the key here.

 

Thanks for the answer, it dealt with another of my concerns too (better ACPI choices to avoid extra kexts). I made up my mind, I'll stick with Clover. Next step is to do some research about tweaking DSDT.

[midi-sama]

IMO, Clover is made for everyone while Oz is quite risky (due to UEFI FW Flashing and such that can lead to devastating results if not handled correctly), and as you said Oz lacks the OTF kext patching, but also Clover has drivers issues with some mobos (but works with a wide range of them), Oz let you boot OS X from the FW and configured from it directly while Clover is program to run after loading the FW and configuring it independently from the FW (they both offer booting to OS X without going through a GUI). However, if anything happened to the disk drive, Clover may break and need to be used from an external storage to boot it up while Oz will always remain in the FW and in some cases have its config files implemented so no fear if anything happens to its setting if the disk fails.

 

Also the "Vanilla" statement means that you leave your System files and roots untouched as in a real mac, having less 3rd party kexts under /S/L/E and/or /L/E, also having the correct SSDT/DSDT patches to even lower the number of kexts needed, using kext to be loaded from Clover OTF also patching default kexts OTF instead of manually, as to keep a "function" working even after an update/upgrade. As our hardware is not designed to be compatible OOB with OS X, having the least needed edits possible makes it "Vanilla", and thus having most functionalities as in a real mac (upgrades like in a real mac thanks to Clover, Audio without patching AHDA or having DummyHDA in SLE thanks to AppleALC, being able to start macOS/X thanks to FakeSMC...).

 

Hope you get the idea

[frankiee]

One small advise: always keep an usb stick with a bootable clover config around, useful not only for installs. For example today, I (or maybe even the installer) accidentally deleted the hfsplus.efi driver while updating clover. Well, no OS X partitions anymore, not even the recovery ... being able to make a "rescue boot" saved by *** without too much hassle

 

Not sure what you can do if you really mess with Ozmosis in such a situation, esp when not having dual BIOS. I guess that would be way more awkward, or even dangerous.

 

Ah and try to not install anything in S/L/E anymore, go for S/L, esp if you want to have SIP. And some (including me) would also argue that the Clover kext folder is even a better place. So I do not only change absolutely nothing with the OS X install, but need only one kext installed in S/L, and this one still annoys me ...

[overdriver79]

..... So I do not only change absolutely nothing with the OS X install, but need only one kext installed in S/L, and this one still annoys me ...

 

Glad you made it! I always have my Clover stick! Which kext are you referring to?

[midi-sama]

One small advise: always keep an usb stick with a bootable clover config around, useful not only for installs. For example today, I (or maybe even the installer) accidentally deleted the hfsplus.efi driver while updating clover. Well, no OS X partitions anymore, not even the recovery ... being able to make a "rescue boot" saved by *** without too much hassle

 

Not sure what you can do if you really mess with Ozmosis in such a situation, esp when not having dual BIOS. I guess that would be way more awkward, or even dangerous.

 

Ah and try to not install anything in S/L/E anymore, go for S/L, esp if you want to have SIP. And some (including me) would also argue that the Clover kext folder is even a better place. So I do not only change absolutely nothing with the OS X install, but need only one kext installed in S/L, and this one still annoys me ...

Just correcting: it's L/E not S/L :3

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[mhaeuser]

Imho "vanilla" has nothing to do with the specific boot loader / method, but more about a minimal and lean configuration and a "clean" startup volume / OS X folder

 

So, I can have 500 kexts on my ESP and be "vanilla"?

 

there is no _really_ "clean" way to start OS X for hackintoshes anyways, that only works with real macs!

 

Apple uses holy water to cook? 

 

I do not see _any_ advantage for using Ozmosis. That starts with having to mess with your BIOS

 

I don't see _any_one who forces you do mod your "BIOS". And if you see no advantages, you don't seem to care for performance, minimalism and symbol-based patches.

 

Not sure what you can do if you really mess with Ozmosis in such a situation

 

Use the ESP?

 

Oz is quite risky (due to UEFI FW Flashing [...])

 

Wrong, only risk is your NVRAM overflowing, which may happen with Clover or Oz. 

[overdriver79]

 

I don't see _any_one who forces you do mod your "BIOS". And if you see no advantages, you don't seem to care for performance, minimalism and symbol-based patches.

 

 

That was interesting. I see you are a developer. Can you please tell us more about symbol-based patches? As far as performance goes, I thought I read somewhere (not sure thought) that there is no difference in performance and boot times.

[THe KiNG]

Funny to see how people "advise" about Ozmosis while they have no clue about what they are talking about.

 

Who have time to document first, would find that:

1. Flashing Ozmosis and/or Drivers and Kernel Extensions into BIOS is a feature not a requirement!

   They can be loaded from ESP(EFI SYSTEM PARTITION) and is also preferred to do so until system configuration is fully done.

2. Ozmosis have kext patching "on the fly" and has its own AI, that means does not require a mile long configuration plist, just that is not yet released to masses.

3, What does have Clover and not Ozmosis(yet) is ACPI patcher, because how is done now is erm lets say just not intelligent and automate.

 

So what else is different?

Clover since is based on Refit/Refind is an application while Ozmosis is a driver(wont get into what is better).

Popularity/widespread Clover vs Ozmosis, chance to find a "ready to eat pizza" goes to Clover.

 

I highly advice n00bs to start with Chameleon/Clover and once they get used with Osx86 world and if they want more fine touches to try Ozmosis.

[overdriver79]

Funny to see how people "advise" about Ozmosis while they have no clue about what they are talking about.

 

Who have time to document first, would find that:

1. Flashing Ozmosis and/or Drivers and Kernel Extensions into BIOS is a feature not a requirement!

   They can be loaded from ESP(EFI SYSTEM PARTITION) and is also preferred to do so until system configuration is fully done.

2. Ozmosis have kext patching "on the fly" and has its own AI, that means does not require a mile long configuration plist, just that is not yet released to masses.

3, What does have Clover and not Ozmosis(yet) is ACPI patcher, because how is done now is erm lets say just not intelligent and automate.

 

So what else is different?

Clover since is based on Refit/Refind is an application while Ozmosis is a driver(wont get into what is better).

Popularity/widespread Clover vs Ozmosis, chance to find a "ready to eat pizza" goes to Clover.

 

I highly advice n00bs to start with Chameleon/Clover and once they get used with Osx86 world and if they want more fine touches to try Ozmosis.

 

Thanks for your post. Ozmosis lacks (or at least I haven't found it yet) a solid walkthrough, something that not only tells you "pick your kext, compress it, put it there" but to make you understand why you do what you do. My mobo has DualBIOS so I will try it sometime.

[frankiee]

So, I can have 500 kexts on my ESP and be "vanilla"?

 

Where did I say that? Think the post made it clear that "clean" means to minimize anything you have to do to make it run. Like in "Trying to minimize...."

 

Apple uses holy water to cook? 

 

Of course! You didn't know that? More correctly, Apple uses the Holy Cook for their water

 

Use the ESP?

 

Use ESP if you messed up your BIOS? How?

 

I don't see _any_one who forces you do mod your "BIOS". And if you see no advantages, you don't seem to care for performance, minimalism and symbol-based patches.

 

Using Ozmosis without modifying the BIOS (aka UEFI)? How? And why is a Hack running Ozmosis more performant than one with Clover? If you mean startup, well indeed it does not matter for me when my machine starts up 5 secs faster. I don't get why there are so many people are obsessed with startup times. I start my machine exactly one time a day. And is it really more "minimal"? In what way? Think the point here is to explain so that we all can learn, not to only claim something. And btw, if I say I don't see any advantages it just mean exactly that, I did not claim that there aren't any advantages. So show us the light please.

 

Not having to use Clover is the advantage of Ozmosis..

 

Well, great argument that explains everything ... like saying: "Not having to use Windows is the advantage of OS X". Well ... so what exactly are the advantages now? Enlighten us, seriously!

[THe KiNG]

Well ... so what exactly are the advantages now? Enlighten us, seriously!

Asking how Ozmosis can be run from ESP make it clear that you have no idea what are you talking about and compare apples with unknown(to you) pineapples...

 

If you don't see its advantages then is not for you

[modbin]

Use bcfg cmd from inside the shell to add drivers/apps. This info is there for more than 10 years now though.

[frankiee]

Which kext are you referring to?

 

Thats AppleHDA1150.kext, placed in L/E. If I recall this correctly,  it's used for injecting layout1.xml.zlib and Platforms.xml.zlib into AppleHDA, therefore leaving the Apple kext completely unmodified (aka "vanilla"). Unfortunately it seems that helper kext does not work by installing it in the Clover kext folder.

[mhaeuser]

1) you said OS X partition was the subject of vanillaness, changes to the ESP (e.g. 500 kexts) are not included.

 

2) You use the ESP to not screw up your fw in the first place...

 

3) Aside from symbol-based patches and better patch automation, Apple input support (boot.efi hotkeys, FV2, ...) etc, tge advantage is less what it has, but rather what it doesn't... If you don't care for performance, so be it.

[frankiee]

1) you said OS X partition was the subject of vanillaness, changes to the ESP (e.g. 500 kexts) are not included.

 

I did not say that its a good idea or even "vanilla" to run 500 kexts from the ESP. But yes, indeed I meant "vanilla" is - for me!!! - to minimize anything necessary to make OS X run on a hack, and that _I_ (!!!) prefer DSDT / SSDT patches over additional kexts or kext patches. So if I wasnt explicit enough I am sorry, think that should be clear now.

 

2) You use the ESP to not screw up your fw in the first place...

 

So your answer implies that you can run Ozmosis without modifying firmware? Sorry, I wasn't aware that you can do this. Interesting!

 

If you don't care for performance, so be it.

 

Wrong, I didn't say that! I very clearly said I do not care too much about startup performance, i.e. how longs it takes to boot the machine, of course as long as the difference is not like 10 minutes. I guess we speak of a few seconds, right? Thats indeed completely irrelevant to me. Of course performance when actually running the machine and doing work matters much more indeed. And as it is not really clear what exactly you mean with better performance, are there any other performance advantages by using Ozmosis other than with starting up?

[overdriver79]

3) Aside from symbol-based patches and better patch automation, Apple input support (boot.efi hotkeys, FV2, ...) etc, tge advantage is less what it has, but rather what it doesn't... If you don't care for performance, so be it.

Any more info on these so that I can study?

[mhaeuser]

So your answer implies that you can run Ozmosis without modifying firmware? Sorry, I wasn't aware that you can do this. Interesting!

 

On Aptio IV, FileSystem has a bug which causes the ESP to be corrupted when Oz writes to it, so you should at least flash a fw with EnhancedFat... aside from that, anything can be loaded from ESP. Actually you can load EnhancedFat from ESP too, but that would decrease performance as you need to reconnect devices.

 

Wrong, I didn't say that! I very clearly said I do not care too much about startup performance, i.e. how longs it takes to boot the machine, of course as long as the difference is not like 10 minutes. I guess we speak of a few seconds, right? Thats indeed completely irrelevant to me. Of course performance when actually running the machine and doing work matters much more indeed. And as it is not really clear what exactly you mean with better performance, are there any other performance advantages by using Ozmosis other than with starting up?

 

When I say 'performance' I ofc mean 'startup' performance, nothing else is going to be influenced by pre-boot stuff

Any more info on these so that I can study?

 

I don't have time right now, check meklort's repos, he has a good amount of code on it... iirc "KernelPatcher" is what he called it (for symbol-based stuff, that is).