Why is Apple so tolerant of us?

[ameris_cyning]

I have had a {censored} ton of applications crash on me. Every time it happens, I always send the report to Apple. I never thought about it until now, but those reports are a dead giveaway you are not on real Apple hardware due to the mismatching hardware. Never get an email about it. One would think that at least a letter from Apple legal demanding the removal of OS X, but absolutely nothing.

 

Then there is the complete lack of effort at stopping us. One can say that they were trying to stop us back in Tiger, but in retrospect, it was new software that was constantly updated to remove bugs. Plus, back in Tiger, our community had no idea about some of the most important concepts in OSx86 today: DSDT, mach_kernel, EFI emulation, smbios emulation, etc etc. The hacks they designed attacked the symptoms but not the actual problem. What the Tiger developers did was use bandaids for a amputation. They got better and they learned.

 

Then there is the fact that they are tolerant of certain OSx86 companies, like Quo Computing, which has been around forever selling machines that can have OS X installed on them by the end user. They didn't show that kind of mercy to Psystar, who sold Apple clones directly with OS X installed.

 

End consumers want PC's with OS X already installed on them. They don't know {censored} about technology and they figure they can get a better deal over Apple hardware. That was Psystar. Conversely, Apple does not put to much effort on chasing the hardcore computer user. It seems to me that as long as we stay out of Apple's core areas they might not really care about us. 

 

But then there is the Apple culture. Its like Nazi Germany there. Its about complete control. So why would they seem to disregard this mindset for us? Apple legal does not believe in Live and Let live

 

[3.14r2]

I have had a {censored} ton of applications crash on me. Every time it happens, I always send the report to Apple. I never thought about it until now, but those reports are a dead giveaway you are not on real Apple hardware due to the mismatching hardware. Never get an email about it. One would think that at least a letter from Apple legal demanding the removal of OS X, but absolutely nothing.

I doubt it these reports are monitored/read by human. Most likely these are processed by some sort of software.

 

Then there is the fact that they are tolerant of certain OSx86 companies, like Quo Computing, which has been around forever selling machines that can have OS X installed on them by the end user. They didn't show that kind of mercy to Psystar, who sold Apple clones directly with OS X installed.

Selling a PC which can be used to install OS X is not a problem Apple could care about, cos' a user may not necessary install OS X to the PC. It's like selling guns to a general public, a gun CAN be used to kill, but not necessary WILL be used to kill (there are many other things a gun can be used for).

 

But if a company starts selling PCs WITH OS X installed, such a company would brake the law, by making profit from Apple's property (and not sharing the profit with Apple). Making illegal profit from someone's property isn't good thing.

 

...Conversely, Apple does not put to much effort on chasing the hardcore computer user. It seems to me that as long as we stay out of Apple's core areas they might not really care about us.

See the above. As long as no property/money are involved, Apple couldn't care less (they have many other thing to care about).

 

...So why would they seem to disregard this mindset for us? Apple legal does not believe in Live and Let live

Not that they take no actions at all, but these are more to make our life more interesting, then to stop us. It may however change with Maverics...

[kNewton]

I always read the reports, but never send them and on some of my older machines I have thought of taking Crash Reporter off, seeing I already know it crashed cause the machine is 20 years old.

[dan542]

As long as Hackintoshes won't be used by masses, I think they're okay with it. We're actually beneficial for them.   How many of you also own an Apple product? How many of you have purchased an app on Mac App Store from which Apple gets 30%? How many of you have purchased OS X? How many of you would recommend a Mac to your less-technically-skiled friends? How many of you develop iOS or OS X apps?

 

I own an iPhone 4S, a 13 inch MacBook Pro, an Apple Wired Keyboard and a Magic Mouse, I develop iOS apps, I have bought some stuff on Mac App Store, I love OS X and would recommend it to anybody, well except for gamers, I guess. How am I not beneficial for Apple? I had even bought the MacBook before built my Hackintosh. And don't say I would have bought a Mac Pro if there wasn't for Hackintosh. Mac Pro is too expensive and its Xeon, ECC memory and whatnot is unnecessary for most people including me. Instead I just would continue to use the MBP as my main computer, I guess I would buy some RAM and an SSD for it, but that's it...

 

[ameris_cyning]

 

As long as Hackintoshes won't be used by masses, I think they're okay with it. We're actually beneficial for them.   How many of you also own an Apple product? How many of you have purchased an app on Mac App Store from which Apple gets 30%? How many of you have purchased OS X? How many of you would recommend a Mac to your less-technically-skiled friends? How many of you develop iOS or OS X apps?

 

I own an iPhone 4S, a 13 inch MacBook Pro, an Apple Wired Keyboard and a Magic Mouse, I develop iOS apps, I have bought some stuff on Mac App Store, I love OS X and would recommend it to anybody, well except for gamers, I guess. How am I not beneficial for Apple? I had even bought the MacBook before built my Hackintosh. And don't say I would have bought a Mac Pro if there wasn't for Hackintosh. Mac Pro is too expensive and its Xeon, ECC memory and whatnot is unnecessary for most people including me. Instead I just would continue to use the MBP as my main computer, I guess I would buy some RAM and an SSD for it, but that's it...

 

 

Lets see...

 

I have an iPhone 4S, an iPad 2, Apple TV 3, 27 inch iMac, and countless purchases on the Appstore and iTunes that amount over $2000, and I am an Apple developer who spend $90 on their {censored} program, so yeah, using OSx86 does lead to joining their ecosystem and spending a {censored}ton of money.

[Sphinx777]

We've been discussing about it for a long time here. Apple is a big company and knows what it does.

Hackintosh is for few people: very difficult and a real laboratory of tests (and testers), developers and hackers that show real solutions for Apple. Its engineers have just few work to final releases, that's all.

Hackintosh and foruns, call centers in USA and all its services are fantastic tools of development.

How many advanced clients and hackintoshers discuss with Apple proving solutions and pointing issues all days?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many hackintoshers and their families have real Apple products, gadjets, apps, cables and all its ecosystem. In our home we think that hackintosh is a fantastic way to learn about OSx and we celebrate when I get a new hack or a new simple discovery.

Our home has several legitimate Apple products and we love its branding.

[fantomas]

Then there is the fact that they are tolerant of certain OSx86 companies, like Quo Computing, which has been around forever selling machines that can have OS X installed on them by the end user. They didn't show that kind of mercy to Psystar, who sold Apple clones directly with OS X installed.

 

Psystar sold PC's with OS X, Apple prohibits the sale of his OS with a non-Apple computers, not to manufacture such a machine.

 

 

As long as Hackintoshes won't be used by masses, I think they're okay with it.

 

I think there are more hackintoshes with a Mac Pro config who are used by "masses" than a real Mac Pro (I hope you understand what I mean)  

 

however, this is not what stopped them to no longer support the Atom processors since 10.6.2   

 

I think Apple has his own (benefit) point of view. Now the real question is "do we really need to know it"? I don't think so   

 

 

edit: @q64ceo

 

just another thing...

 

..."Why is Apple so tolerant of us?"

 

Do you really think that this has something to do with "The Big Issues [Real Life]"? 

   

[Henry2010]

I think Apple's profit now largely comes from iTunes, App Store, iPhone, iPad.

[tepaks]

If you ask me, Apple isn't tolerant at all!

 

As the matter of fact Apple uses us for two reasons but before I get to it let's take a look at the facts.

 

First, for what ever reason we want Apple software but not (all) Apple hardware.

 

Second, sins first release of OS X, ( Intel based one ) Apple didn't even tried to protect it like MS or any other software company.

 

Third, and let us not ignore this one, first Hackintosh was build by an Apple employe who was bold enough to present it to the board and, guess what?

He kept his job, probably got promoted. Same year Apple announced switch from PPC to Intel.

 

So how is Apple using us?

 

First is very obvious one. Commercial reasons! Ask You self how many genuine Apple products are connected to your Hackintosh?

How manny genuine Apple software are there in your AppleStore account?

 

Well, second one may be a little disturbing.

For Apple, Hackintosh community is nothing else then a true free of charge Research & Development department. Imagine, all developers, testers, users.

All posible hardware & software we use every day. All Apple needs to get that knowlege is to read this forum instead of spending money on R&D.

 

Finally, ask your self why on Earth did Apple decided to release stripped down, free of charge version of OS X and name it "Mavericks"?

 

Long story short, Apple can easily put us out of the game. Still they don't. Why?

 

Everything boils down to profit. As long money is flowing towards the kitty, they don't care.

 

Finally, You may ask me: Knowing all this, why You use Hackintosh?

 

Honestly, my first iHack was more or less a self build trial version. It only purpose was to find out is genuine OS X computer something I like to use or not before buying one.

First one was very cheap, actually it cost ma only a spare HDD and a sleepless weekend. For my current rig I've spend so much money and time that a genuine iMac is a bargin.

 

You nay ask yourself why I still stick to iHack?

 

Because I'm a Maverick and believe that operating system shod be free of charge. Apple finally made it so!

 

Steve R.I.P. but with all due respect, I only want your software, not your hardware! Now I have it. Thanks! c-u l8er ...

[Avishadur]

I think if they keep with the free OS idea in future releases it may actually turn out that their business model picks up the profit from all of the other places, as in hitting a potentially bigger audience promotes giving them more money.

 

If they allowed people with legitimate copies of their OS to be installed on hardware they didn't produce, the theory may well be that those who don't buy their hardware with OSX and such probably weren't much of a guarantee of income. Once again, it allows an audience for their products to grow upon.

 

 

 

 

Basically, don't deny them their cut and they are quite capable of profiting off it.

[iWin32]

 

I have had a {censored} ton of applications crash on me. Every time it happens, I always send the report to Apple. I never thought about it until now, but those reports are a dead giveaway you are not on real Apple hardware due to the mismatching hardware. Never get an email about it. One would think that at least a letter from Apple legal demanding the removal of OS X, but absolutely nothing.

First, I'm not sure if anything could really be used to determine a real Mac and a Hackintosh in those reports.  The only dead giveaway is that it would include a kext called FakeSMC whose sole purpose is to enable OS X to work on non-Apple hardware.  It probably doesn't take a lot of looking in a computer's hardware in those reports unlike a Windows OEM, where they produce a large line of PCs, whereas Apple has only a select few computer lines (iMac, MacBook Pro, Mac Mini, etc.).  So, I could be wrong, but whatever SMBIOS you use will tell Apple what "product" of theirs you're mimicking using.

 

 

Then there is the complete lack of effort at stopping us. One can say that they were trying to stop us back in Tiger, but in retrospect, it was new software that was constantly updated to remove bugs. Plus, back in Tiger, our community had no idea about some of the most important concepts in OSx86 today: DSDT, mach_kernel, EFI emulation, smbios emulation, etc etc. The hacks they designed attacked the symptoms but not the actual problem. What the Tiger developers did was use bandaids for a amputation. They got better and they learned.

Well, it isn't just the hacks themselves.  Take a look back at our dark history.  When OSx86 was first becoming a dream, we knew it would take some serious hacking to get it to work from a pirated, leaked copy from the Developer's Transition Kit.  Then, came a long way to turn a PearPC installation of that kit to a working VMware Virtual Machine, which could be DD'ed to a hard drive to copy OS X onto a PC.  Then came the deadmoo image.  Or, want to take a look at the OS X installer discs?  Maxxxus created a patch to get OS X installers for intel Macs to boot up on regular PC's, and those scripts were used to make almost every Tiger distro out there!  Then, when Leopard came out, we had to patch the kernel to get it to accept the BIOS and our hardware.  Patches to Leopard were even harder to apply, as it no longer was just TPM circumvention, but rather we had to fight the dreaded DSMOS.  Eventually, OS X Leopard's hacks were turned into many more distros, including the still prevalent distro creator iATKOS.  You see, when hackintoshing was still new, the hacks took a lot of work, and pirated copies of the OS was the only way for a lay-user to install OS X on a PC.  We weren't a hack and mod forum; we were a forum encouraging the use of an OS in a way the creator didn't want by using pirated software.  While you're right that EFI emulation (whether TRUE EFI emulation from Clover or the older, Boot-132-based EFI simulation from modified APPLE source code   ), was long sought after and achieved, Apple was more so upset at the Piracy issue than the EULA issue.  That's likely the reason why they were determined in updates to make this impossible.

 

Then there is the fact that they are tolerant of certain OSx86 companies, like Quo Computing, which has been around forever selling machines that can have OS X installed on them by the end user. They didn't show that kind of mercy to Psystar, who sold Apple clones directly with OS X installed.

They were more tolerant to Quo Computers as well as that nasty TonyMacWannaBeX86 (        ) because these companies aren't selling illegally copied versions of the OS on thier own computers like Psystar; you need a legally copied version of the OS to boot from it.  Psystar did do that.  Keep in mind that back in the days of Psystar, Boot-132 was still new technology, and they had been selling Open Computers long before the boot 132 swap CD even existed.  According to court documents in that legendary case, Psystar bought a Tiger-running Mac, installed a legal copy of Retail Leopard on it, cloned it to a master PC, hacked the OS to make it bootable on the PC, and used that PC's hard drive as the master copy for all OS X-running Open Computers.  Even we can see that that way of installing OS X is not only undesirably unnecessary, but creates illegal copies of the OS in the process.  That's why the court ruled in favor of Apple's claim of copyright infringement against Psystar, as when asked about their Fair Use defense (which I believe does cover the hackintosh user), we only heard the crickets chirping.

 

 

End consumers want PC's with OS X already installed on them. They don't know {censored} about technology and they figure they can get a better deal over Apple hardware. That was Psystar. Conversely, Apple does not put to much effort on chasing the hardcore computer user. It seems to me that as long as we stay out of Apple's core areas they might not really care about us. 

 

But then there is the Apple culture. Its like Nazi Germany there. Its about complete control. So why would they seem to disregard this mindset for us? Apple legal does not believe in Live and Let live

 

 

 

Apple doesn't really chase after us individual Hackintosh enthusiasts for two reasons:

1. The legal department has better things to do I'm sure than write thousands of cease-and-desist letters to every Hackintosh user just for not following one part of the EULA that doesn't even constitute copyright infringement.
2. Apple's moneymakers are likely not the mac computer lines anymore, but rather the iPod Touch, iPhone, iPad, etc.

Like other people said, they are more tolerant of being their guinea pigs and testers without having to pay people to do it for them.  We already know that Apple may actually support the Hackintosh community indirectly because the new kernel/kext security protection layer in Mavericks lists a lot of kexts like FakeSMC and other kexts from developers from here, there, everywhere, and TonyMacWannaBeX86, as seen in this post.  Even though that was from a Developer Preview, I've heard that the Exclude list hasn't changed from then to the App Store version.  Especially when you consider that plus the FREE price in the App Store, Apple is likely wanting to pursue other venues for their major profit gainer.

 

Well, that's my (very long) two cents to the issue!

 

[vbetts]

Really nothing closed to Apple has been modified enough to be illegal(Darwin Sources are open), and we aren't doing anything to hurt their business.

[PippoX0]

Apple have released Mavericks for free because if every mac is updated, they outdate all the others version of OSx.

 

This means new hardware, new softwate , new moneys...

 

This is the business plan.

 

Hackintoshs are not a problem, a lot of Osx fans are also apple's product buyers.

 

See ya

[joe75]

Really nothing closed to Apple has been modified enough to be illegal(Darwin Sources are open), and we aren't doing anything to hurt their business.

 

616,360 members as of this post; since this is a hackintosh site, say they all didn't own macs and ran hacks..

 

$369,816,000 potential profit loss considering the least expensive option to run their OS.

[vbetts]

616,360 members as of this post; since this is a hackintosh site, say they all didn't own macs and ran hacks..

 

$369,816,000 potential profit loss considering the least expensive option to run their OS.

How many are real accounts?

How many are active accounts?

How many actually have a mac?

How many bought a legal license for Os X versus didn't:?   MAVERICK is free in App Store  

How many actually have and use Os X on a daily basis?

 

There's too many factors to make an assumption like that. If we really were doing some type of damage to their business, communities such as ours or tonymac(bleh) wouldn't be going so strong right now and actually building up more. Tonymac makes profits even because of osx86.

[joe75]

I was making an example of "potential" loss to show you that they do indeed lose money.. My figure is at lowest Mac Mini prices and even cutting the numbers in half is still over $160,000,000. Apple is a hardware company and selling hardware is what they care about. You are the one making "assumptions" in thinking hackint0sh doesn't hurt their business. It seems you don't understand that NO ONE should be able to use osx on anything but a Mac and ANY install on something that is NOT a Mac IS a loss to Apple.. Play it down however you want, its still someone using osx without buying a mac to do it.

[vbetts]

Mac books and Imacs are the commonly sold Macs. That's where I obtained the average prices, then factored in the lost cost of the Mac Mini, and the high cost of the Mac Pro.

Average price of the Mac sold is probably say, $1200-$1500 in that range?

 

Q1 2013 earnings- $54.5 billion, 47.8 million Iphone's sold, 22.9 Million Ipad's sold, 4.1 million Mac's sold. 

$1200*4m=$4,800,000,000 

$1500*4m=$6,000,000,000

(Results were rounded down because I did 4m and not 4.1m.)

 

Q2 2013 earnings- $43.6 billion, 37.4 Iphone's sold, 19.5 Ipad's sold, 4 million Mac's sold.

 

$1200*4m=$4,800,000,000 

$1500*4m=$6,000,000,000

 

Q3 2013 earnings- $35.3 billion, 31 million Iphone's sold, 14.6 million Ipad's sold, 3.8 million Mac's sold.

 

$1200*3.8m=$4,560,000,000

$1500*3.8m=$5,700,000,000

 

Q4 2013 earnings- $37.5 Billion, 33.8 million Iphone's sold, 14.1 million Ipad's sold, 4.6 million Mac's sold.

 

$1200*4.6m=$5,520,000,000

$1500*4.6m=$6,900,000,000

 

Total if $1200= $19,680,000,000

Total if $1500= $24,600,000,000

 

Your formula, which is based on assumptions with no reasoning other than they are a member of this community factored in $369,816,000.

 

$369,816,000/$19,680,000,000=.1%

$369,816,000/$24,600,000,000= .1%

 

Results from the above equation were rounded to the nearest tenth. If you didn't round it, the first would be about .018 and the second would be about .015. 

Even if you lowered the average sale price of the mac sold to $1000 or $700, it would still come up with only a fraction of earnings.

Either way, we are not doing them enough harm. I can guarantee also that all of those members in this community, not all have a working hackintosh, or are active, or did not buy Os X.

 

And yes Mavericks is free in the App store, but you need to buy Snow Leopard, Lion, or Mountain Lion to get it if you don't have one of the three already. 

 

My results came from Apple Quarterly earnings in 2013.

http://investor.apple.com/results.cfm

 

Hackintosh communities are the minority, simple as that. 

 

Does it hurt the image of a Mac, when Apple tells you only their Mac hardware can run mac os X when you're running on it an everyday desktop? Yes.

 

Does it hurt the earnings and business revenue of a Mac? Not at all, nor does it hurt the earnings and business of Apple.

[Allan]

in my opinion.

 

Apple loves us ...

 

how much more OS X (original) are installed, have the most profits. 

 

if Apple wanted to, could have already blocked site Hacks a long time.

[Lacedaemon]

Well, they're obviously not doing anything, but they do know we're here, that's for sure!

 

http://netkas.org/?p=1315

[iFIRE]

very easy to understand  :   + Mac OS X installed =   - Windows in the market 

[Alessandro17]

People who really like OS X (and I am one of them, I hate Windows with a passion, especially Windows 8, and Linux has disappointed me in countless ways) will sooner or later buy a real Mac. So we are all potential Mac buyers here.

Trouble is, Apple is not making life easy for us who want to buy a Mac. They discontinued the 17" MacBook Pro and if you want a 15" one you must necessarily buy a Retina one. Add a few upgrades (you want to add them in order to make it future-proof) and you are easily 3000 euros/dollars out of pocket.

I will not even consider the new Mac Pro. For a tinkerer like me it isn't even a real computer.

[dddirtman]

People who really like OS X (and I am one of them, I hate Windows with a passion, especially Windows 8, and Linux has disappointed me in countless ways) will sooner or later buy a real Mac. So we are all potential Mac buyers here.

Trouble is, Apple is not making life easy for us who want to buy a Mac. They discontinued the 17" MacBook Pro and if you want a 15" one you must necessarily buy a Retina one. Add a few upgrades (you want to add them in order to make it future-proof) and you are easily 3000 euros/dollars out of pocket.

I will not even consider the new Mac Pro. For a tinkerer like me it isn't even a real computer.

exactly why well hack.......

why buy a new mac pro when u can build one for half the price...

[vbetts]

If you know nothing about computers, or are not willing to learn then that's where Hackintosh machines are bad. Also in the business world, both for the same reason. Support. I run osx86 on my machine at home, but at work I use my Macbook and was given choices of laptops to buy, Macbook being one of them. I know that some of the other choices with a few tweaks they would run Osx86 just fine, but I wanted stability and support guaranteed. Neither of which you are for sure to get with an osx86 machine. I love my AMD rig at home, and so far with newer kernels Mavericks runs great for me. But I know it wouldn't if I didn't do half of the things I do to it. Versus an actual Macbook, just restore it to fix it.

[Mikethebike]

People who really like OS X (and I am one of them, I hate Windows with a passion, especially Windows 8, and Linux has disappointed me in countless ways) will sooner or later buy a real Mac

 

Not me, I'm happy with Ubuntu. In the past Linux was often not easy to use but that changed. And with Steam games coming, I only boot Win/Mac to recompile my stuff.

 

In most EU countries, Apple's EULA even seems to be not valid. So if they wanted, they would need to integrate some DRM alike Windows.