arsradu Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, vector sigma said: There is no reason to be in localizable.strings because off directory serves to nothing other then have all drivers available and ready to be copied from the shell or from Finder. Clover ignore them, is just a "parking" for all the drivers. As Slice already said, and written in latests posts, you are responsible for your own tests. Clover is under development. Guys stop watching off drivers Lol. Serves to nothing, nothing to understand. Clover doesn't use them and you have to do nothing. Watch it when you need a different drivers. Will be there. Also before was drivers-off, now is "off" and is under a folder called "drivers". Was discussed yestrerday and then we did it. I made scripts to be changed in 1-2 minutes to make it appear. So "disable", "unused", "notLoaded", "repository".. or what else you like? Well, in my opinion...if it's supposed to be a repository with all the drivers...from which the user chooses upon installation only a couple of them, depending on UEFI/Legacy boot and so on so forth, then "repository" sounds like the best name. But if it's supposed to be used to disable drivers (which, again, I don't understand why would anyone do it this way...if you don't want a driver, just don't install it in the first place, no point to place it in "disabled", or "repository" or whatever we choose to call that folder), than maybe "disabled", or "off" like it was before, would be better. Slice said it's "off" as in "disabled". And he chose off cause it was shorter to type (which I agree). Then let's leave it "off" then. If it can be used both as place to store the drivers and also, by the user to put their drivers they want disabled (again, not sure why would anyone do it this way, but people are weird), then let's leave it "off" then. 13 minutes ago, Slice said: Yes, the ISO is designed for legacy boot (and it really works!). I am just not sure if UEFI boot is also possible. I'll try to burn the iso on a CD/DVD tonight and see if it boots. But...how do you even configure it before writing it on the disk? I guess you need to edit the iso first...? I've never used the iso. Edited July 10, 2019 by arsradu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slice Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 10 minutes ago, arsradu said: I'll try to burn the iso on a CD/DVD tonight and see if it boots. But...how do you even configure it before writing it on the disk? I guess you need to edit the iso first...? I've never used the iso. Just boot with the default config and then tune inside Clover GUI. by the user to put their drivers they want disabled (again, not sure why would anyone do it this way, but people are weird), A user may install wrong set of drivers, ask the forum and then move some drivers to OFF or back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arsradu Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Slice said: Just boot with the default config and then tune inside Clover GUI. by the user to put their drivers they want disabled (again, not sure why would anyone do it this way, but people are weird), A user may install wrong set of drivers, ask the forum and then move some drivers to OFF or back. I see... So that's the use case... Ok. That makes sense. About Clover ISO, ok, I'll try it tonight. I've never used it before. I'll have to connect my external DVD burner. :)) Since I don't have one included with my system anymore. But I'll do it. This sounds fun. Edited July 10, 2019 by arsradu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slice Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Hey, @vector sigma What about ticket 538? Is it resolved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badruzeus Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 @vector sigma Sure, nothing to be worried as usually I install it first under VM or at least, USB PenDrive for using with Host machine. Yeah, keep a good work and honestly I'm happy having double drivers as bonus on ESP.. it'll be a problem if none of them are located there, on the contrary hah haa.. Ah nevermind, question: What's different between bootarg on Volume's Menu with check list compared to one on Custom Entry? On my case with Nvidia gfx; I get non-working nv_disable=1 bootarg from Custom Entry for booting RecoveryHD partition, but from Volume's Menu checklist (as well Option menu - Bootarg) it works. (again, only occurred when booting RecHD). Thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arsradu Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) @Slice So, short answer for booting from iso under UEFI: nope. Long answer: noooope. :)) Details: The DVD boot option is only visible if booting with CSM enabled. Otherwise, no way of choosing that in boot menu. And indeed, it's using cdboot. And apparently, even if I try to boot like that, it ends up in an error. Not sure if that part is intended. Attached you have the iso I used for this. Clover-v2.4k-4986-X64.iso Edited July 10, 2019 by arsradu 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slice Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 25 minutes ago, arsradu said: @Slice So, short answer for booting from iso under UEFI: nope. Long answer: noooope. :)) Details: The DVD boot option is only visible if booting with CSM enabled. Otherwise, no way of choosing that in boot menu. And indeed, it's using cdboot. And apparently, even if I try to boot like that, it ends up in an error. Not sure if that part is intended. Attached you have the iso I used for this. Clover-v2.4k-4986-X64.iso "Not found" is a typical Clover message. So it is started! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vector sigma Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Sherlocks said: @vector sigma did you update beta3? No, I'll do that in minutes. 6 hours ago, Sherlocks said: can you check sudo mount -uw in package? still not working.. we need to type command in terminal it is already there. Can you try to install only things that goes in the ESP, without installing the clover prefpane, rc script etc. and let me know? 4 hours ago, Badruzeus said: Yeah, keep a good work and honestly I'm happy having double drivers as bonus on ESP.. it'll be a problem if none of them are located there, on the contrary hah haa.. I can make an option for it for who wants them. 6 hours ago, arsradu said: But if it's supposed to be used to disable drivers No no, you don't have to put drivers here to disable them... is just a place where you have all the drivers. As Slice said you can test them with the shell if something goes wrong and you want copy another driver in drivers/UEFI (or drivers/BIOS) Edited July 10, 2019 by vector sigma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vector sigma Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Slice said: Hey, @vector sigma What about ticket 538? Is it resolved? Sorry no, I'll do that in the week end as it will require a bit of time. 47 minutes ago, Slice said: "Not found" is a typical Clover message. So it is started! Later I'll copy in drivers/UEFI the drivers suggested by you (in the iso). let me know if a need of other drivers be. Edited July 10, 2019 by vector sigma typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vector sigma Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, Slice said: At least Fat.efi, HFS+, APFS, Aptio, oh, which aptio do you prefer? In the case is OsxAptioFix3 should I ensure any slide values is written to the config.plist inside the iso? Edited July 10, 2019 by vector sigma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mork vom Ork Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 i think, the following folder could be deleted now from the repo: "CLOVER/CloverPackage/CloverV2/drivers-Off", cause since latest rev4986 it will no longer be filled with *.efi files while building CLOVER Installer. Also in "ebuild.sh" line 843 "rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/CloverV2/drivers-Off" could be deleted, which now seems to be useless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vector sigma Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Mork vom Ork said: Also in "ebuild.sh" line 843 "rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/CloverV2/drivers-Off" could be deleted, which now seems to be useless Is there to clean old stuff. Is the path wrong? # clean old drivers directories if [[ "$DRIVERS_LEGACY" != drivers64 ]]; then rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/EFI/CLOVER/drivers64 fi if [[ "$DRIVERS_UEFI" != drivers64UEFI ]]; then rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/EFI/CLOVER/drivers64UEFI fi rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/CloverV2/drivers-Off Edited July 10, 2019 by vector sigma 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mork vom Ork Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, vector sigma said: Is there to clean old stuff. Is the path wrong? no, it is correct, but will allways recreate that folder, even it is no longer needed since latest rev4986. But i see your request to let it stay for users, which are not allways on latest rev. still needed for users which are on revs <4986. Maybe "if...than...else"declaration could help: if current rev < 4986 create this folder, else delete it if present Edited July 10, 2019 by Mork vom Ork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vector sigma Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Mork vom Ork said: but will allways recreate that folder, Ok thanks, I have to find where this happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mork vom Ork Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, vector sigma said: # clean old drivers directories if [[ "$DRIVERS_LEGACY" != drivers64 ]]; then rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/EFI/CLOVER/drivers64 fi if [[ "$DRIVERS_UEFI" != drivers64UEFI ]]; then rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/EFI/CLOVER/drivers64UEFI fi rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/CloverV2/drivers-Off yep, that's it. works perfect! <-- as allways ;-) PS: i doubt for rev4986 it should be like this: # clean old drivers directories if [[ "$DRIVERS_LEGACY" != drivers64 ]]; then rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/EFI/CLOVER/drivers/BIOS fi if [[ "$DRIVERS_UEFI" != drivers64UEFI ]]; then rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/EFI/CLOVER/drivers/UEFI fi rm -rf "$CLOVER_PKG_DIR"/CloverV2/drivers-Off Edited July 10, 2019 by Mork vom Ork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vector sigma Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 47 minutes ago, Mork vom Ork said: PS: i doubt for rev4986 it should be like this: is: https://sourceforge.net/p/cloverefiboot/code/HEAD/tree/ebuild.sh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkdesign Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/8/2019 at 3:57 PM, vector sigma said: GPT don't have an ESP if the disk is <=2 GB. It's also written to your log: /dev/disk4 (external, physical): #: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER 0: GUID_partition_scheme *2.0 GB disk4 1: Apple_HFS Boot 1.9 GB disk4s1 ...that disk4 doesn't have it. Take a 4 GB stick at least Thank you! I'm not crazy. I'd been Googling for hours to figure that out. That should be prominent in all instructions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkdesign Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/9/2019 at 8:16 AM, Slice said: I need more information what is the fail. Meanwhile AptioMemoryFix chooses slide value automatically while Fix3 uses value from user and default one is zero. May be for Catalina zero value is not the best and you have to choose something like slide=128. None of the usual drivers worked for me. The only solution was OsxAptioFix2Drv-free2000.efi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion71au Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, vector sigma said: I guess it's better to stay inside "FileSystem" directory, otherwise there's no logic behind. If you want I can make it checked by default instead. Yes, that would be good, and I understand it makes "logical" sense to keep some drivers in both locations if "Off" refers to "Off-line Repository", where all the efi drivers are kept for safekeeping. However for the moment, the Clover make pkg script will complain and fail if ApfsDriverLoader.efi is placed in both /drivers/UEFI (or /drivers/BIOS) and /drivers/off/UEFI(or BIOS)/FileSystem. Here's one possible arrangement. For the essential/recommended efi drivers needed to boot the system, these are placed in /drivers/BIOS or /drivers/UEFI... Spoiler For the other drivers, they can be put in the "Off-line Repository"... Spoiler Color coding: green = extra efi drivers from acidanthera repos. If I had to choose a recommended/preferred AptioFix driver (that works for the most systems), it would be AptioMemoryFix.efi. I realize, however, it doesn't work for everyone... blue = proprietory file system efi drivers red = efi drivers currently in the recommended folders that are not really necessary for booting eg AudioDxe.efi is just for the boot chime and can significantly slow down booting SMCHelper.efi can cause conflict if using VirtualSMC.kext with VirtualSMC.efi, and is it really necessary for booting macOS? 12 hours ago, arsradu said: @Slice So, short answer for booting from iso under UEFI: nope. Long answer: noooope. :)) And apparently, even if I try to boot like that, it ends up in an error. Not sure if that part is intended. Attached you have the iso I used for this. Clover-v2.4k-4986-X64.iso @arsradu, Your compiled Clover ISO is missing apfs, HFS and AptioFix drivers, therefore the "Not found" error I assume... Spoiler You can try this one Clover-v2.4k-4986-X64.iso.zip with ApfsDriverLoader, VBoxHfs and AptioMemoryFix in /Drivers/UEFI included. Note I have not changed the default config.plist provided by the Clover repo ---> may have to tweak settings to boot your system from the Clover GUI. The Clover ISO at least is able to EFI boot into macOS Catalina with VMware EFI firmware ... Spoiler Edited July 11, 2019 by fusion71au formatting 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlocks Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 2 hours ago, fusion71au said: Yes, that would be good, and I understand it makes "logical" sense to keep some drivers in both locations if "Off" refers to "Off-line Repository", where all the efi drivers are kept for safekeeping. However for the moment, the Clover make pkg script will complain and fail if ApfsDriverLoader.efi is placed in both /drivers/UEFI (or /drivers/BIOS) and /drivers/off/UEFI(or BIOS)/FileSystem. Here's one possible arrangement. For the essential/recommended efi drivers needed to boot the system, these are placed in /drivers/BIOS or /drivers/UEFI... For the other drivers, they can be put in the "Off-line Repository"... Color coding: green = extra efi drivers from acidanthera repos. If I had to choose a recommended/preferred AptioFix driver (that works for the most systems), it would be AptioMemoryFix.efi. I realize, however, it doesn't work for everyone... blue = proprietory file system efi drivers red = efi drivers currently in the recommended folders that are not really necessary for booting eg AudioDxe.efi is just for the boot chime and can significantly slow down booting SMCHelper.efi can cause conflict if using VirtualSMC.kext with VirtualSMC.efi @arsradu, Your compiled Clover ISO is missing apfs, HFS and AptioFix drivers, therefore the "Not found" error I assume... Reveal hidden contents You can try this one Clover-v2.4k-4986-X64.iso.zip with ApfsDriverLoader, VBoxHfs and AptioMemoryFix in /Drivers/UEFI included. Note I have not changed the default config.plist provided by the Clover repo ---> may have to tweak settings to boot your system from the Clover GUI. if user have virtualsmc.efi in driver folder, SMCHelper.efi will be ignore by postinstall script in package like hfsplus.efi case 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arsradu Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, fusion71au said: @arsradu, Your compiled Clover ISO is missing apfs, HFS and AptioFix drivers, therefore the "Not found" error I assume... Reveal hidden contents You can try this one Clover-v2.4k-4986-X64.iso.zip with ApfsDriverLoader, VBoxHfs and AptioMemoryFix in /Drivers/UEFI included. Note I have not changed the default config.plist provided by the Clover repo ---> may have to tweak settings to boot your system from the Clover GUI. Yeah, I've noticed that, too! But since I've never used the iso before, I thought maybe that's just how it's supposed to be. Maybe it takes them from somewhere else. Anyway, even with your ISO, I've got the exact same result: 1. DVD drive only visible if UEFI booting disabled (CSM enabled) which I guess it makes sense..if it's supposed to be for legacy booting only? 2. booting with that, I get stuck at exactly the same error "Not Found". If that's intended, well, I guess test passed....? But I can't get any further than that. Also, if I press Enter on that error screen, I get this. Also, checking the default config, I'm not sure if my system can boot with that. I need KernelPM enabled in Kernel and Kext Patches. Also, can you even boot with absolutely nothing in SMBIOS? Also, I guess the iso is only for people who can boot with the default configuration? Meaning without changing anything on that iso. Cause otherwise, how would you even edit that iso AFTER it got compiled? Isn't that read-only? What can you use on MacOS to edit an ISO? Doesn't seem to work by default. And even with hdiutil mount -readwrite /path-to-iso.iso doesn't seem to work... Or I'm doing it wrong. Says: hdiutil: mount failed - Function not implemented Also, speaking of drivers, in your iso, I can see this. I tried to make a clean build of Clover iso, and while this time I got some drivers, the important ones seem to be all under drivers/BIOS, and not so much under drivers/UEFI. Is that intended...? Edited July 11, 2019 by arsradu 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slice Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 hour ago, arsradu said: Yeah, I've noticed that, too! But since I've never used the iso before, I thought maybe that's just how it's supposed to be. Maybe it takes them from somewhere else. Anyway, even with your ISO, I've got the exact same result: 1. DVD drive only visible if UEFI booting disabled (CSM enabled) which I guess it makes sense..if it's supposed to be for legacy booting only? 2. booting with that, I get stuck at exactly the same error "Not Found". If that's intended, well, I guess test passed....? But I can't get any further than that. Also, if I press Enter on that error screen, I get this. Also, checking the default config, I'm not sure if my system can boot with that. I need KernelPM enabled in Kernel and Kext Patches. Also, can you even boot with absolutely nothing in SMBIOS? Also, I guess the iso is only for people who can boot with the default configuration? Meaning without changing anything on that iso. Cause otherwise, how would you even edit that iso AFTER it got compiled? Isn't that read-only? What can you use on MacOS to edit an ISO? Doesn't seem to work by default. And even with hdiutil mount -readwrite /path-to-iso.iso doesn't seem to work... Or I'm doing it wrong. Says: hdiutil: mount failed - Function not implemented Also, speaking of drivers, in your iso, I can see this. I tried to make a clean build of Clover iso, and while this time I got some drivers, the important ones seem to be all under drivers/BIOS, and not so much under drivers/UEFI. Is that intended...? This should be corrected. BIOS drivers will not include Fat, HFS, AptioFix, UsbMouse and Ps2Mouse. They are already in cdboot file. UEFI drivers not needed here as UEFI boot is not possible. Default config can be corrected in Clover GUI. Press letter "o" and see new menu. About "Not found". It is the message from DeleteFromBootOrder() procedure. I have to remember what is mean and why it can not work and why KP after it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion71au Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 1 hour ago, arsradu said: Yeah, I've noticed that, too! But since I've never used the iso before, I thought maybe that's just how it's supposed to be. Maybe it takes them from somewhere else. Anyway, even with your ISO, I've got the exact same result: 1. DVD drive only visible if UEFI booting disabled (CSM enabled) which I guess it makes sense..if it's supposed to be for legacy booting only? 2. booting with that, I get stuck at exactly the same error "Not Found". If that's intended, well, I guess test passed....? But I can't get any further than that. Also, if I press Enter on that error screen, I get this. Also, checking the default config, I'm not sure if my system can boot with that. I need KernelPM enabled in Kernel and Kext Patches. Also, can you even boot with absolutely nothing in SMBIOS? Also, I guess the iso is only for people who can boot with the default configuration? Meaning without changing anything on that iso. Cause otherwise, how would you even edit that iso AFTER it got compiled? Isn't that read-only? What can you use on MacOS to edit an ISO? Doesn't seem to work by default. And even with hdiutil mount -readwrite /path-to-iso.iso doesn't seem to work... Or I'm doing it wrong. Says: hdiutil: mount failed - Function not implemented Also, speaking of drivers, in your iso, I can see this. I tried to make a clean build of Clover iso, and while this time I got some drivers, the important ones seem to be all under drivers/BIOS, and not so much under drivers/UEFI. Is that intended...? Hi @arsradu and @vector sigma, @vector sigma, There is a mistake in the makeiso script (introduced in commit for r4987), so that all the intended extra efi drivers for /drivers/UEFI ended up in /drivers/BIOS instead... I have fixed the script makeiso_fixed.zip so it now places the drivers in the UEFI folder (and also copies the needed ApfsDriverLoader.efi to /drivers/BIOS). Spoiler For @arsradu, To make a custom Clover ISO with your desired config.plist, assuming you have just built the standard Clover r4989 with eg Build_Clover.command... 1. Rename ~/src/edk2/Clover/CloverPackage/makeiso to say makeiso_orig. In its place, copy my fixed file above. 2. Delete ~/src/edk2/Clover/CloverPackage/CloverV2/EFI/CLOVER/config-sample.plist. Copy your desired config.plist (which you know boots your system) to the same folder, giving it the name config-sample.plist 3. Copy all the kexts you normally need to inject with Clover to ~/src/edk2/Clover/CloverPackage/CloverV2/ThirdParty/kexts/Other 4. Run my new makeiso script in terminal... cd ~/src/edk2/Clover/CloverPackage chmod +x makeiso ./makeiso The custom ISO will be created in the ~/src/edk2/Clover/CloverPackage/sym folder. The red screen error and your inability to boot in UEFI only mode maybe some firmware incompatibility or even the default Clovy svg theme (I have a red screen error on my legacy BIOS machines if I use Clovy theme instead of my normal BGM). As I showed in the above post, at least theoretically, the Clover ISO is able to boot in UEFI mode successfully as a virtual CD/DVD-ROM attached to a VMware Workstation 12 VM. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arsradu Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Slice said: This should be corrected. BIOS drivers will not include Fat, HFS, AptioFix, UsbMouse and Ps2Mouse. They are already in cdboot file. UEFI drivers not needed here as UEFI boot is not possible. Default config can be corrected in Clover GUI. Press letter "o" and see new menu. About "Not found". It is the message from DeleteFromBootOrder() procedure. I have to remember what is mean and why it can not work and why KP after it. I see.... Thing is..., I do not reach Clover GUI, at all. So...can't change anything on-the-fly. I just select the DVD from boot menu, a few lines appear (not enough time to actually read it), then blinking cursor in the top-left corner (I think that's normal for Legacy booting) aand then it gets stuck on that "not found" message. And if I press Enter on that screen, it goes to that red text screen I posted above. So, I never get to actually tweak the config in any way, since I never reach Clover GUI. 10 minutes ago, fusion71au said: For @arsradu, To make a custom Clover ISO with your desired config.plist, assuming you have just built the standard Clover r4989 with eg Build_Clover.command... 1. Rename ~/src/edk2/Clover/CloverPackage/makeiso to say makeiso_orig. In its place, copy my fixed file above. 2. Delete ~/src/edk2/Clover/CloverPackage/CloverV2/EFI/CLOVER/config-sample.plist. Copy your desired config.plist (which you know boots your system) to the same folder, giving it the name config-sample.plist 3. Copy all the kexts you normally need to inject with Clover to ~/src/edk2/Clover/CloverPackage/CloverV2/ThirdParty/kexts/Other 4. Run my new makeiso script in terminal... cd ~/src/edk2/Clover/CloverPackage chmod +x makeiso ./makeiso The custom ISO will be created in the ~/src/edk2/Clover/CloverPackage/sym folder. The red screen error and your inability to boot in UEFI only mode maybe some firmware incompatibility or even the default Clovy svg theme (I have a red screen error on my legacy BIOS machines if I use Clovy theme instead of my normal BGM). As I showed in the above post, at least theoretically, the Clover ISO is able to boot in UEFI mode successfully as a virtual CD/DVD-ROM attached to a VMware Workstation 12 VM. Thank you! I'll try it when I get home. Edited July 11, 2019 by arsradu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andres ZeroCross Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 I got this problem when installing Clover r4988,, I have run "sudo mount -uw /" and "sudo killall Finder" before install Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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