OS X on Intel Still Not Complete

[HoZy]

The part that makes me think, Is the "improved OpenGL support" does that mean there might be a chance for ATI drivers they have in OSx86 to work at all?? Because what crashe's ATI drivers is the OpenGL bundle/package. The actual ATI kext's work

 

Regards

HoZy

[G5rocks]

Can you name some protection schemes in the same "space" that haven't been broken?

 

what if apple build it's own mainboard? they allways did it.

 

Look on Pro Tools LE - it's kind of Hardware dongled. Noone ever managed to let it run without the hardware but there is really no need for the hardware in the non TDM version.

 

Apple Logic Audio there are a lot of dongle cracks on the web but none works

[willgonz]

Besides. You're not going to run out and buy a $500 Mac Mini when you spent $3000 on a gaming rig. However, if you were to pay only $129 for the Mac OS X x86 software that will run on non-apple equpiment, then you have many more buyers. I think it is time for a Poll.

[blkblt]

what if apple build it's own mainboard? they allways did it.

 

Look on Pro Tools LE - it's kind of Hardware dongled. Noone ever managed to let it run without the hardware but there is really no need for the hardware in the non TDM version.

 

Apple Logic Audio there are a lot of dongle cracks on the web but none works

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, you'd have to question what they'd put on the mainboard. Are they going to use an Apple Southbridge and Apple Northbridge? We know they're using a P4 that's not custom. Given that Darwin boots on vanilla x86 hardware, building a custom motherboard wouldn't seem to their advantage in keeping people off the OS. Look at how many motherboards/chipsets are already supported through Darwin.

 

I have noticed that things on Apple are cracked/pirated less than Windows. It's harder to find serialz and crackz. I attribute this to two things:

 

1) Less users = less demand = less crackers. I haven't heard of a single Mac warez group, compared to the endless ones on the Windows side.

 

2) For some reason, there tends to be a different culture around the Mac, sort of an underdog feeling. Yeah, you can find a lot of the major apps pirated, but a lot of the minor apps are cheap and people seem not to pirate them on principle. Bravo...it's always been my opinion that lowering the price of software was a basic microeconomics way of increasing demand for the legitimate product and producing more revenue for the software writer. I've actually bought a piece of Mac OS software for my "black market" OSx86 machine, which is one more piece than I've bought in years.

 

My opinion of how it'll play out: There will be TPM "wars", and the end result will be cracked versions of the OS appearing some time after an official release, and running on rather specific x86 hardware (with less specificity over time as people port drivers).

 

If people want a rock solid OS with support, they'll buy the real thing.

 

If people don't mind hacking around, living without support, and wondering why that PPC app crashes occasionally they'll run the cracked version.

 

The main difference with Windows will be the hardware support. Steve Jobs will get the best of both worlds, because people will buy official Macs for the better hardware support, and us "pirates" (who love the platform, but want to save money on the hardware or just enjoy running it on our own boxes) will help the community by porting/creating software for the Mac OS and expanding the reach of the platform.

 

But then again, I could be totally wrong.

 

/blkblt

[firehearth]

Talking about Logic and Protools, I worked with both of them and both of them I could use them cracked (with a virtual dongle) also the Protools cracked version, a friend of mine sound technician said that had more channels than the legal release......

 

So donggles or chip security can make it harder to crack, but if the ppl wants it there always will be geeks like us trying to find the final piece of the jigsaw.

 

BTW, my laptop runs perfectly the OSX86 and has an ati video card, what exactly do you mean that cannot be used or it needs more drivers???

[blkblt]

BTW, my laptop runs perfectly the OSX86 and has an ati video card, what exactly do you mean that cannot be used or it needs more drivers???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

By "perfectly" do you mean with Quartz Extreme and Core Image?

 

Does the suspend function work? Can you close the laptop and reopen it and everything's fine?

 

Can you use your touchpad perfectly? How about your network card? Sound card?

 

If you've answered yes to all these questions, I believe you're a lucky person indeed, and I'd like to know what laptop you have. I have a Sony Vaio PCG-GRX690 with ATI and I'm scared to even begin to install it.

 

/blkblt

[willgonz]

BTW, my laptop runs perfectly the OSX86 and has an ati video card, what exactly do you mean that cannot be used or it needs more drivers???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok go into your accounts and turn on Fast User switching. With that turned on: When you switch to a different user the screen will rotate and you'll be presented with a great effect.

Another thing:

Switch your desktop to change the wallpaper to switch every 5 seconds? Does it fade in and out between the wallpapers or does it just quickly change?

[Pnutster]

Detering hackers....

 

Nonsense!

 

Since Mac OS X (for PPC's that is) new developer builds or seeds have had this phenomenon. No compatibility with the previous. Why would Apple. All apps will be on the new Developers seed. This is nothing new for Apple and building new developer versions of their OS. It has nothing to do with detering hackers.

 

I have been following a lot of the MAC OS x86 topic since I am very anxious to know what Steve Jobs is up to. Will it run on Apple specificly chosen hardware only or will there be a CD/DVD for sale to install like Microsoft Windows is sold.

 

For that time being I find it absolutely unbelievable that there are people outthere buying new hardware based on an early stage developer version of an OS.

 

Developer version... that reminds me.... what is important in that... change?????? or hacker deterents???? hmmm.. glad I am not a developer.

[batitombo]

I think for apple officially changing to Mac OSX to average PC will be their last resort,

 

I hope someday it'll happen! I don't think Microsoft will do so good OS like apple, Be4 Macrosoft, I guess Linux would be First

[KENNYB]

if you ask me then this it was intent of Apple to let OS X 10.4.1 be pirated so easy. At the end you all will be stuck on a PC system that will not work with the newest OS X and the native x86 software! The people who work at Apple are not idiots - this all is a giant Apple PR campaign and it works very well!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Stuck on a pc? We're not stuck since we already have hardware. Besides working drivers, i don't need much more from OS X. If i want additional apps i can get them through Fink. My current setup performs better than my now-sold powerbook so i don't really care about new OS features.

I don't see much more coming from OS X in the next year. Quartz 2D Extreme will work by then but so what? More eyecandy that you have to use 3rd party tools to disable. No thanks. I refuse to by another powerbook at almost any price. Until Apple makes a powerbook that can be used on the go without worrying about scratching its pretty little paint, i know i'm not alone in refusing to buy another one. In a perfect world Apple would make an upgraded clone of the Thinkpad. Black, good hinges, looks goodin black.

[omni]

Takuro, It's always easier to wait for someone else to do all the hard work, no?

 

willgonz, I went out and got a "$500" Mac Mini and I love it, it's far nicer to use than my 3.2GHz, OC GF6800GT, 2GB RAM PC, because OS X works as it should without any lack, or insufficiency of drivers etc.

 

Aside all this, the new build might be more beefed up in protection, but it still has to run within the same parameters (unless Apple went out of their way to replace *all* ADK machines with new ones that contain better TPM and what not - which is unlikely).

 

And as a reminder: "Computing is bit-based, it all comes down to 1 or 0 somewhere down the line".

 

With that in mind every computer system is inherently flawed no matter if it had a single character password or a 1024 bit, kernel level process encryption. As long as hackers have physical access to the system (and the entire OSX86 Community does) someone is ought to figure it out with enough time. If humans have done it - humans can undo it...

[KENNYB]

By "perfectly" do you mean with Quartz Extreme and Core Image?

 

Does the suspend function work? Can you close the laptop and reopen it and everything's fine?

 

Can you use your touchpad perfectly? How about your network card? Sound card?

 

If you've answered yes to all these questions, I believe you're a lucky person indeed, and I'd like to know what laptop you have. I have a Sony Vaio PCG-GRX690 with ATI and I'm scared to even begin to install it.

 

/blkblt

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can open and close the lid on my thinkpad and everything is fine. Touchpad, ethernet, sound all check. I'm not used to QE or CI so not having them isn't a big deal to me.

Scared of even installing?

[G5rocks]

I have noticed that things on Apple are cracked/pirated less than Windows. It's harder to find serialz and crackz. I attribute this to two things:

 

1) Less users = less demand = less crackers. I haven't heard of a single Mac warez group, compared to the endless ones on the Windows side.

 

that's really funny

if you ask me then i would say macs biggest problem is piracy - there are so many servers out there with anything you want days before it will be officially released. and even the shareware guys who make the usefull tools for pirates (like little snitch) have the problem that their products got cracked or some serials appaer in the monthly "serial box" database.

 

Talking about Logic and Protools, I worked with both of them and both of them I could use them cracked (with a virtual dongle) also the Protools cracked version, a friend of mine sound technician said that had more channels than the legal release......

 

as i said so many servers... but you will not find these 2.

what you saw was not the non dongle logic express and not logic pro.

and you saw the mod of pro tools free for OS9. there is no Pro Tools LE version that works without

the hardware - belive me i am sound engineer and i'm searching for years now.

[banini_jeque]

I'm sick of reading people's {censored} opinions about the direction Apple is going with their business by not letting people install OS X on regular PCs. If you had such a brilliant blessed idea then Apple would replace Steve Jobs with you. Leave the business decisions to people who know what they're doing and shut the hell up.

[G5rocks]

but want to save money on the hardware or just enjoy running it on our own boxes) will help the community by porting/creating software for the Mac OS and expanding the reach of the platform.

 

then you new guys should write games, game tools and port autocad. that's the only thing the mac still needs today because there are tons of all the other stuff.

[thebordella]

I'm inclined to agree with blkblt. We've been down this road before. People have been too obsessed worrying about Apple going to extraordinary means to combat osx86 hacks. It seems farfetched to me.

 

The vast majority of potential buyers of x86 Apples are the same people who have been buying Apples before. Most of them don't know or care what processor and mainboard is inside the sexy box. They want the sexy box. They want the sexy OS. I'm not saying that in a derisive way. Apple buyers are interested in buying the Apple brand.

 

Everyone likes to think of themselves as the center of the universe, but we -- the osx86 white box enthusiasts -- are way out on the fringe of Apple's solar system.

 

Apple's only real commercial threat in moving to the x86 platform is potential clones. They have already nipped that in the bud with TPM. Even weak TPM is still TPM, and is a legal bar that prevents major retailers -- the Dells, Gateways, etc. -- of the world from selling and supporting Mac "clones."

 

The only people bothering with hacked white box x86 Macs are us -- people who like mucking around with drivers, patches, don't care for support or even perfect stability. We're really no threat to Apple -- if anything, we'll be positive word of mouth, "influencers" who encourage other less hardcore enthusiasts to purchase the real thing.

 

So it seems difficult to fathom that Apple would engage in complex hardware-software contortions just to keep us out. It would cost them more than its worth. As others have said, everything is crackable given enough time and effort. Proprietary hardware solutions are only going to cost Apple more, reduce their opportunity to take advantage of significant economies of scale in the x86 world, and for what? I know Apple is famously paranoid, but it just doesn't add up.

 

The most likely scenario is just as blkblt points out. osx86 updates and releases may need patching, putting the hackers on a delayed upgrade cycle. osx86 will understandably continue to support limited hardware configurations, with some unsupported expansion over time as independent developers write open source drivers.

 

Again -- most people, particularly Apple customers, just aren't going to care about our little hobby. They'll continue to buy Apple branded machines. Apple's happy, Apple fans are happy, and us whiteboxers are happy. Who knows what may come of this 5 or 10 years out. People should be careful about saying "Apple would never...", particularly after this last year. Apple will continue to do what they decide is necessary and sound to grow their business given conditions at the time. But in the next couple of years following the initial osx86 deployment, this seems like a plausible scenario.

 

But, like blkblt said, I could be totally wrong.

[seafirex]

Well, for me i think they are just not doing it like M$, the reason behide this is that, M$ is giving to beta testers the software to test and find bug or security breach from there software, but they are not implementing any security what so ever that prevents people from hacking it.

 

Also if you let people test then you must be sure that they will find some work around security implimented in the software, and then released to the public.

 

And that is when M$ really loose's it.

 

Reason : Hackers, Crackers, etc.etc.etc. They dont like M$ so they make virus, trojans, etc.etc. , Hey if they did not then the systems would not be as secure as they are right now, not to say that they are that secure but they are really compared to not so long like 5 to 6 years ago.

 

If apple wants it system more secure, well it is there rights, they are not forcing people to buy it.

 

They only say, you want a mac then pay for it.

 

Mac = MACOS

Apple = MACOS maker and programmer.

 

as of PC = Any OS

PC = M$ was the first to have a big fonctional OS working and selling it on the market.

 

People please dont do the same as for the Windows , dont bi%^$ at Apple. People should know that they are as bad as M$ but just more diplomatic about it.

[alvinf]

Hi! thebordella,

 

Sounds good to me. I too went out & bought a hakintosh PC even I already have Mac & PC. It works well for me.

[larrybird]

While most of you seem to be bickering about the direction, intent, and short comings of Apple and their OS, I have concrete concerns. The topic line mentions a new torrent being released, but I haven't seen anything here or on other sites about it. Is this because most people are waiting for the file to be downloaded or it's too soon to really know anything about it? Why don't we stop arguing with eachother and start talking about the specifics of this new build.

[LobsterDK]

New torrent being posted? A little impatient are we?

 

Give it time man, give it time.

[larrybird]

While most of you seem to be bickering about the direction, intent, and short comings of Apple and their OS, I have concrete concerns.  The topic line mentions a new torrent being released, but I haven't seen anything here or on other sites about it.  Is this because most people are waiting for the file to be downloaded or it's too soon to really know anything about it?  Why don't we stop arguing with eachother and start talking about the specifics of this new build.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"OS X on Intel Still Not Complete, A new seed has been released."

 

That is the heading of this topic. I associate seed with torrents. I think perhaps that isn't the case in this topic though. I assume, now, that by seed the poster meant for the developers.

[DeathChill]

"OS X on Intel Still Not Complete, A new seed has been released."

 

That is the heading of this topic.  I associate seed with torrents.  I think perhaps that isn't the case in this topic though.  I assume, now, that by seed the poster meant for the developers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apple seeds all the new releases to developers, it has not yet been released to anyone besides developers.

[darkten]

Some insight for you.

Apple doesn't care about what Microsoft, or you, cares about.

 

At all. It is not in their corporate DNA.

 

Its lke this; Apple isn't concerned with "the most"...not even with the miracle that is iPod. They really, really don't...care. See the end of this for a graphic example of this thinking.

 

What motivates Apple, at the core, and most of the "Apple Universe" is being the *best*.

 

The best built. The best marketed. The whole "needful thing" mentality and world view.

 

See, if Apple thought they *could* make OSX work on anything as well as the OOTB experience that they offer on their own hardware...they probably would.

 

Apple didn't switch to Intel because Intel makes "the most" cpu's; they switched to Intel because there was no way they could make *better* computers on the PPC platform.

 

This whole concept is really out of the reach of most people...they can't wrap their minds around the fact that Apple consistently says "no" to things that could grow their marketshare because it would, for want of a better word, "sully" their brand.

 

To *Apple* if no one else, Apple stands for quality over quantity. Apple is fueled by the madate to make things functionally simple, useful and unique. Apple doesn't *care* that, for example, they could have made the nano 1/8th+1/16th of an inch thicker, with a one 1/16th of an inch gap between the back and front piece, and maybe kept the 6GB disk drive in it.

 

It would have *more* space, but would not have been *better built*.

 

This is *quite* backwards to a great many people, but for that fraction that really appreciates this, there is no equal.

 

Some call it "form over function"...but to Apple, there is no such animal. Lack of form effects functionality, because it is flawed in the Apple book.

 

It wasn't just a joke when they used to say of the Powerbooks that "our assess look better than their faces"...this stuff really matters there.

 

I've worked with Apple a looong time (can't say how) and I gotta tell ya...this really matters to them. I mean they *killed the iPod mini*...the best selling mp3 player *in the world* because it could have been better. Does this resonate at all with you guys?

[pcchen]

OK, I'm trying to understand how to build a secure system using TPM. I'm a computer science major, I just don't understand how -- in practice -- they will be able to completely lock it down. I've yet to hear a technical explanation that convinces me, and that's what I'm looking for. And the whole "IF YOU WANT TO" is bogus -- I'm sure Microsoft *wanted* to build a secure XBox.

 

As I said before, you can encrypt the essential softwares (kernel or GUI base codes) and use the TPM chip to decrypt them and put them into a protected space. A well-designed trusted computing system will not allow the CPU to put the decrypted data in a unprotected space, so it's impossible to get them out. It's also impossible to patch the kernel if it's encrypted, since you don't know how to decrypt it.

 

This does not need special motherboard or special CPU, because eventually all CPU and all motherboards inside a PC will support trusted computing.

 

IIRC current trusted computing only considers software based attacks. They don't design to prevent hardware based attacks, as hardware based attacks are much harder. However, if you want you can make it even harder. You can put TPM chip inside the CPU. If you don't want to do this, you can still connect the TPM chip directly to the CPU, and use full duplex channels. This way, CPU can transmit random noises while TPM module sending decrypted data. This makes it impossible to probe the signal (decrypted data are mixed with random noises). For memory bus (the decrypted data has to be resided in memory), you can put an AES unit inside the CPU to encrypt the TPM decrypted data (the encryption key can be randomly generated when the CPU boots), and write the re-encrypted data into the memory, and decrypted on the fly when reading from the memory. This way, probing the memory bus won't do you any good.

 

Let me use a real world example. In Japan there are HDTV capture cards for PC. However, the broadcasters don't want PC users to be able to record the shows freely. The common practice in Japan is "copy once policy," that means you can record the show, but you shouldn't be able to redistribute the recorded show to anyone.

 

To make sure the "copy once policy" is followed, the capture card manufacturers use a simple method: the capture card decrypts the broadcasted data and then encrypt the data with a key unique to the card (which is stored in the chip on the card). If you want to watch the recorded show, you need that specific card, because the key is unique. The card does not send the decrypted data back to the computer, it decodes the MPEG-2 data and send them to the display card directly. So the user will never get the original MPEG-2 stream. They can still record the show, store on their computers, and watch the recorded show anytime they want, but they can't watch the show on another computer.

[kuau]

Here are my two cents.

When Steven Jobs started NeXT Computer he wanted to have the coolest hardware and the coolest OS for the hardware.

Well we all know what happened with first the hardware, then after making a last ditch effort with NeXTStep for Intel Processors, trying to support as many different intel boxes as possible that also failed.

IMHO, Steven just had his timing wrong, he was about 10 years to early, and did not have any big name software companies behind him, my god, NeXTStep ran on Display Postscript from Adobe, and all Adobe does in terms of software for NeXT is a crapy release of Illustrator and no PhotoShop. If Adobe would have came out with Photoshop and Aldus or Quark come out with it software for NeXT, I think NeXT may have had a chance. but now with OSX on Apple, there is a great list of apps for it. I think it is perfect timing. I believe he will first only let OSX86 on Apple/Intel hardware, this will in terms of getting more market share will fail, they will sell no more intel / apple boxes as they sell G5 boxes now. 99% of the people who own Macs are not geeks like us, they are artists, designers, etc. They just want something that works and Apple has always been the box of choice for these people all be it a very small segment of the market place. We all know what has saved apples butt, not it's computers or sexy OSX software, can you say IPOD. And now he want to have an IPOD/CELLPhone. What next? All I can say is I hope at some point apple does release a OSX86 for the rest of us. Not force us to buy there iron, all be it Apples boxes have always been cool and will always be the coolest as long as Steven Jobs is at the helm.

Last point, remember for years when Scully was running Apple, the look and feel of the hardware sucked. Jobs was doing his NeXT Cube, pizza box, all black, very hip, way cool, just no software for it.