OSx86

[covenant]

If you're going to buy a fraggin Dell, then yeah, you won't save much. But not everyone is a DellSheep.

 

Let's see - at LAST YEAR's prices:

 

DFI LanParty NF4 Ultra D - $109

AMD Opteron 170 (2.0ghz) - $169 (overclock to 2.8ghz - FREE)

2gb Patriot DDR PC4000 - Bought 3 years ago, let's say $200?

320gb Seagate 7200.10 SATA2 Drive - $94.99

Case - $10 Ultra Aluminus (after rebate)

Video Card - ATI X1950XT 256mb - $169

PSU - Ultra 600Watt - $99

21" Sony Trinitron FLAT CRT (on ebay) - $24 (no shipping, locally picked up)

17" Dell Trinitron FLAT CRT - Free, given to me.

ASUS DVD-RW: $35

Logitech S510 Media Desktop & Remote (wireless keyboard/mouse/remote) : $23.07 on sale.

 

Includes DUAL onboard GIGABIT lan. Includes onboard firewire, USB 2.0.

 

Let's see... my total - $933. Add in various fans and such, and you MIGHT be around $1000.

 

Now - show me a Mac that costs $933 or anywhere even close that is even close to as powerful as my box, and I'll show you a liar.

 

Not meaning to be nasty, but the truth is the truth, and Apple hardware IS overpriced. Sure, if you have the money and want to pay for it, especially if you're not technically inclined enough to build your own system, then go for it. But I'm not going to spend 3x as much for the same basic abilities.

 

Additionally, I did not lay out $933 all at once. The system was built in stages. The moitor I've had for years. The memory came from a previous system. The HD was a later upgrade. The video card is the 3rd card I've had in this system. The DVD drive was an upgrade from an earlier one. And, in the future, I can just slip in new hardware is it becomes available rather than having to lay out the cash for an entirely new system.

[jglavin]

So what you are really saying is that ALL pre-built computers are overpriced...which is probably true, but it's not Apple's fault.

[FUKKU]

So what you are really saying is that ALL pre-built computers are overpriced...which is probably true, but it's not Apple's fault.

Seriously.

 

How can you in all seriousness compare a pre-built computer to something that you essentially made from spare parts?

[covenant]

Seriously.

 

How can you in all seriousness compare a pre-built computer to something that you essentially made from spare parts?

 

The point is, I'm not going to spend that much money on hardware. I WOULD buy the OS if it were available seperately for hardware that is custom built. And I'd hardly say "spare parts" - I selected all the components in my system specifically for the specs and performance I wanted, and it delivers.

[sven77]

IMO both of you are right. Apple Notebooks and Mac Pros aren't too pricey for what you get. But there aren't any alternatives for the desktop sector. Minimacs are {censored}. So are iMacs, beside that they're also ugly. Even on the desk of a dentist's secretary it looks like a design-accident..

 

I would really appreciate it, if apple would close that gap.

[SDRacer48]

I disagree. I think Jobs already knows what your saying, but just doesnt care. Why should he support every piece of hardware out there? Why should he have programmers waste time on hardware that's not what he/his engineers designed. Right now, if he were to be asked why non-standard hardware's not supported, all he has to do is say "Because it wasnt designed for running on that hardware. Why should we support it? It's not what we designed."

 

It's his company's proprietary OS, there is no reason whatsoever that he should be told what he can and cant do with it. It's not like Apple has a monopoly of any sorts in the OS market.

 

This is the exact reason why I don't understand apple and their ways. Seriously, think about it. Microsoft makes an OS that is compatiable with 99.9% of all PCs on the market (wether its windows 95 or windows vista). It has an OS that is compatiable. Therefore, Gates and Microsoft make the most money and get labled monopolists for basically being capitalists. Yes the OSes may be edgy in the beginning, and may need a little better hardware every now and then, but they generally work for 99.9% of the worlds computing needs.

 

But, Wisniak and Jobs are hailed as heros and revolutionaries because they create an OS that is truely visual pleasing, not to mention incrediably stable for long periods of time. One problem, you MUST and I mean MUST buy their incredibly over priced hardware to run their wonderful OS. That is monopolistic. That is taking a product that could and I think should be available to everyone, and making it available to only people rich enough to afford it. That is pretty much booting 80% of computer hardware manufactures to the curb, because they think theirs is superior. Which in the pure capitalist way, is true, and they could legally do that, since they did start out as a Hardware Company.

 

Yet, when law suites come up, they are against Microsoft. For their built in search function in Vista. Um... hey google there has been something similar to that in another highly popular (but not highly distributed OS mind you) for years. But all people see is success and want to bring it down. Apple has had success but on a very minor scale compared to Microsoft.

 

So to the questions.

 

Downloading software, music, videos, and even operating systems in my mind is purely legal. I figure every thing on the internet or available through the internet (basically not in a hard copy form) is a non entity. It has no real being. You cannot touch it. If I went into an Apple Store and took a copy of OS X off the shelf and walked out with out paying, I stole it. I physically took something of being. Online, I cannot physically take it, it can be duplicated. There is no way to control it. I predict that one of two things will happen in the future about things on the internet that cannot be considered a physical entity. 1.) Companies will stop caring. They will just move on and promote the fact. Realizing hey, it I set up this bit torrent server and just let everyone download songs/software/videos for free. They will see advertising that I get paid for. Or they may just find other alternatives. 2.)There will be a major crack down and lockup of all non entity copyrighted material. It would basically govermental control of the internet on a major scale.

 

No I do not feel morally wrong for having OSx86 on my PC. And actually, I just bought and iBook off ebay for my mom. The funny part is that I am going to update it to Panther via a copy of the install cds that I downloaded via torrent.

[Davejb]

But, Wisniak and Jobs are hailed as heros and revolutionaries because they create an OS that is truely visual pleasing, not to mention incrediably stable for long periods of time. One problem, you MUST and I mean MUST buy their incredibly over priced hardware to run their wonderful OS. That is monopolistic. That is taking a product that could and I think should be available to everyone, and making it available to only people rich enough to afford it. That is pretty much booting 80% of computer hardware manufactures to the curb, because they think theirs is superior. Which in the pure capitalist way, is true, and they could legally do that, since they did start out as a Hardware Company.

 

Now I'm curious, I posted in a different thread and got blasted for even suggesting Apple's were more expensive than PC's.

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?sho...60386&st=40

[Numberzz]

Now I'm curious, I posted in a different thread and got blasted for even suggesting Apple's were more expensive than PC's.

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?sho...60386&st=40

many people here are die-hard apple fans(including me). now, i love the new leopard interface, love the iphone, love the softened colors of the new ipod nano(colors). now i have to be honest here, i dont rly care how much the computer costs, in fact i had my old macbook pro for just over a year. but apple does have very good prices on their ipods, computers, and (now) iphones. the macbooks seem expensive for a starting point of $1100, but when u see the $700 hp or dell laptops, it prolly has like 512 MB ram, 60 GB hard drive @ 4200 rpm. the macbooks have a lot of features for the price. also apple computers have this new thing, its called the apple store, no other company has that(well one does but they arent that good anyway). i haved

[Hellerphant]

I work in IT here in Australia and while Mac wasn't a part of my life till early this year, here in Aus many of us (myself included) never even see macs

 

But after doing a lot of research and needing to get a laptop for work I took the plunge and bought a Macbook and now I would never go back! I run a pretty high spec PC and I still prefer to use my MAC for pretty much EVERYTHING!

 

As I said I'm only putting my point forward as an Aussie, but I was always under the impression that mac's were good, but software and compatibility in a Windows world was an issue, but I've never needed to use my copy of Parallels once as everything I've needed I've found a Mac alternative that is just as good, if not better than it's PC counterpart

 

Yes Mac's are a little expensive (here anyways), but you have to remember that each mac is configured with software and basically pretty much EVERYTHING the average user would ever need program wise, to use straight away out of the box, and without spending a whole lot of cash on extra software

 

I really hope the mac market increases here in Aus, because I truly believe now is the time that Apple are on the rise

[SDRacer48]

many people here are die-hard apple fans(including me). now, i love the new leopard interface, love the iphone, love the softened colors of the new ipod nano(colors). now i have to be honest here, i dont rly care how much the computer costs, in fact i had my old macbook pro for just over a year. but apple does have very good prices on their ipods, computers, and (now) iphones. the macbooks seem expensive for a starting point of $1100, but when u see the $700 hp or dell laptops, it prolly has like 512 MB ram, 60 GB hard drive @ 4200 rpm. the macbooks have a lot of features for the price. also apple computers have this new thing, its called the apple store, no other company has that(well one does but they arent that good anyway). i haved <3 apple when i got my blueberry imac with os 9.1 TAKE THAT VISTA

 

WRONG!!!!!!

 

I bought my Acer Aspire 5100 Laptop 6 months ago with these specs:

 

Windows XP Media Center Edition

AMD Turion 64 (yes 64 bit) MK-36 processor

1GB of RAM

80 GB HDD

DVD Burner/CD Burner Combo Drive

15.4" LCD Screen

Card Reader

Wireless Internet Built In

All the goodies basically

 

It cost me $600 plus shipping from NEWEGG.

 

Lets see a brand spanking new MacBook with thoses specs or quite similar for 600 dollars USD. You can't. And by the way yes I know Win XP MCE does not take advantage of the 64 bit technology, but anytime I want I can upgrade to XP 64 bit or Vista 64 bit.

 

With consideration to the iPods and mp3 players, you are wrong once agian.

 

I love my zune with its large bright screen, iPods blow and are overpriced in comparison.

 

PROOF: http://www.walmart.com/search/browse-ng.do...catNavId=538310

 

What is that? A 30GB Zune for $199 and an 4GB iPod nano for $197. I can't but help to laugh at your ignorance.

 

I do not hate apple, and as a matter of fact, I enjoy some of apples products (ie. their operating system), but to call their products normal priced is absolutely ignorant. If apples products had run of the mill prices, don't you think everyone would own an apple pc.

[MacVertigo]

Hackintosh is just wrong. So is downloading any apple software that has been released for us to buy. (have leo builds..but I can't buy that yet) Apple should be supported by us. If we are all diehard Mac users..then lets support them and buy their products!

[Davejb]

Hackintosh is just wrong.

then lets support them and buy their products!

 

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to it??

 

It's not likely I'll every buy Apple hardware, way too over priced, despite what Apple fan's say. Not to mention their habit of turning out {censored} hardware, then deleting posts on their support forums about it. A hackintosh is the best of both worlds, inexpensive, reliable PC hardware, and OSX.

 

I feel sorry for those that bought a MacBook Pro!

http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=MacBook_Pro

[Threepwood]

AMD Turion 64 (yes 64 bit) MK-36 processor

1GB of RAM

80 GB HDD

DVD Burner/CD Burner Combo Drive

15.4" LCD Screen

Card Reader

Wireless Internet Built In

All the goodies basically

 

It cost me $600 plus shipping from NEWEGG.

 

Why are you comparing a Turion CPU to a C2D? If you're going to compare you should at least go for the same components. Apple hardware costs a little more but the difference isn't that big nowadays.

 

And to those of you who compare the iMac to your home built gamer PC - get real and stop comparing pineapples to kiwis. The iMac is a unique product. If you appreciate what it has to offer over a conventional system you know it's worth the extra bit of money.

 

1) It's dead quiet. I've been fighting against computer noise since I got my first desktop system. I see words like 'ultra quiet' all the time in the world of desktop computers and it's just marketing {censored}. My machine is reasonably quiet now after I got a fanless psu and a zalman cpu cooler, installed a modified case fan (runs even slower than the default limit) and set OS X to turn off harddrives when they aren't in use, but still... Some people appreciate a really quiet computer, and the iMac offers that right out of the box.

 

2) It's very clean, compact and stylish. Not everyone is a computer geek who likes to have masses of cables and different boxes lying around (and making noise).

 

3) It's a Mac. If you want to be *guaranteed* to be able to use OS X to its full potential without bothering with hacks etc you have to buy a real Mac. Some people think this is worth a little extra cash.

 

There are, of course, bad things about a closed system as well. But the point is that you should compare neither the iMac nor its price to a conventional a Windows machine. Especially not a home built one.

[SDRacer48]

Why are you comparing a Turion CPU to a C2D? If you're going to compare you should at least go for the same components. Apple hardware costs a little more but the difference isn't that big nowadays.

 

Why am I comparing a Turion to a C2D?

 

Because I get the same functionality. My Acer performs just as well if not better than any MacBook out there. Yes, it is not the hollowed Core 2 Duo, but most applications on both Windows and Mac do not take advantage of it. I have seen this myself. My wife has an Acer lappy with a Core2Dou and it is the same speed wise as mine. I have also played with several MacBooks that have Core2Dous, guess what same speed, same feel.

 

And to those of you who compare the iMac to your home built gamer PC - get real and stop comparing pineapples to kiwis. The iMac is a unique product. If you appreciate what it has to offer over a conventional system you know it's worth the extra bit of money.

 

That is merely opinion....

 

1) It's dead quiet. I've been fighting against computer noise since I got my first desktop system. I see words like 'ultra quiet' all the time in the world of desktop computers and it's just marketing {censored}. My machine is reasonably quiet now after I got a fanless psu and a zalman cpu cooler, installed a modified case fan (runs even slower than the default limit) and set OS X to turn off harddrives when they aren't in use, but still... Some people appreciate a really quiet computer, and the iMac offers that right out of the box.

 

A lot of computer companies offer that right out of the box... every single dell desktop I have ever come in contact with was silent, absolutely silent.

 

2) It's very clean, compact and stylish. Not everyone is a computer geek who likes to have masses of cables and different boxes lying around (and making noise).

 

Again, that is merely opinion....

 

Compact, Ok, I give you that. But clean and stylish, that is merely opinion. That is what Steve Jobs and Apple are counting on. That dumb douche bags buy there computer based on that it is only "clean" and "stylish". That it is the hip thing and people want to be in the crowd because they are soulless, lifeless, and patetic teenagers. What about performance and functionality per cost. Opportunity costs is what life is about, and per costs any IBM PC is a better opportunity cost than an APPLE PC. *NOTE: not everyone is a rich little snot who gets everything from their parents, I personally am paying my own way through college... GOO UCF KNIGHTS!!!!

 

 

3) It's a Mac. If you want to be *guaranteed* to be able to use OS X to its full potential without bothering with hacks etc you have to buy a real Mac. Some people think this is worth a little extra cash.

 

It's a Mac. See above comments.^^^^^

 

I am guaranteed to use OS X. Oh, but not without hacks... Um, what is this forum dedicated too... Oh yeah Hacked Macs... OSx86, not OS X. And trust me, it is not worth the extra cash if you have a budget, see comments above...^^^^^^

 

There are, of course, bad things about a closed system as well. But the point is that you should compare neither the iMac nor its price to a conventional a Windows machine. Especially not a home built one.

 

But, they are both Personal Computers wether you like it or not, and they directly compete wether you like it or not. Apple computers are no different than IBM PCs. They do damn near the same things, function almost the same way. And both connect to an iPod... Sorry I had to make myself giggle.

 

With all this said, I am a supporter of everything Apple, Windows, Linux, and what the hell ever else is out there. There is nothing that says more about the American way (yeah, start blasting me, I said it, the American way) than choice. The more variety the better. It makes it more fun for me in the long run and I get to sit here and debate on this nonsense all day long.

 

Current List of Phun (take that Jobs, you aren't the only cool person, ahahaha) Devices:

 

Custom Built IBM PC (it is an IBM, because it does not only run Windows, therefore not a Windows PC)

Canon Pixma ip5000 printer

Xbox 360

Microsoft Zune

Apple iBook G3 (recently sold)

Apple PowerBook G3 (old school, OS X 9)

Nintendo Wii

Acer Lappy and my wife's Acer Lappy

My Wife's Dell Desktop

My RCA 27 inch low def tv... and on and on...

 

All of these things have been acquire overtime as gifts and personal purchases. The point was to justify that I am a supporter of all things that are things... Keep on macKIN' every one!!!

[yangj08]

Well, I got OSx86 because I wanted the Mac experience, but not on such fragile hardware (I managed to do over $1000 of damage to a high-end Aluminum Powerbook in a year). My view on the topic is that Apple won't provide the hardware I need at all, so I use my own with their software. I can't step into the rest because I live in China- even if Apple cared and wanted to do anything, they can't- even the resellers point people to OSx86 (discs at the ready) when people say "it's so good, but the price..." which shows what kind of IP laws exist in China.

 

My setup-

$2000-

Panasonic Toughbook CF-T5

1.2GHz Core Solo

512MB RAM

10/100 Ethernet

12in LCD

SD card reader

Intel Wireless (doesn't work)

about 6hrs of battery life

 

Works rather nicely for me, and it's fanless too. If Apple would make their own version of Toughbook I'd be back with them in a heartbeat, but they don't, so yay for OSx86.

[Synaesthesia]

nice computer!

Panasonic Toughbook CF-T5

1.2GHz Core Solo

512MB RAM

10/100 Ethernet

12in LCD

SD card reader

Intel Wireless (doesn't work)

about 6hrs of battery life

 

Works rather nicely for me, and it's fanless too. If Apple would make their own version of Toughbook I'd be back with them in a heartbeat, but they don't, so yay for OSx86.

[Conroe Mac]

OS X86 is morally and legally wrong. Neither of these things have ever stopped me from doing something I wanted to do.

[yangj08]

I suppose you're right on the "morally" bit, but I'm happy to say that I currently live in a country where it's legal (even the Apple resellers get in on the action- I've heard every so often "So you like Mac OS but that Macbook's too expensive? Here, this version's made for normal computers...").

[aboldinu]

I don't see how 'morally' it is wrong...I'd guess and say a lot of people here have their OSx86 machines as a 'stepping stone' to buying a real mac, rather than a replacement.

[yangj08]

Well, I'm using mine as a substitute for a real Mac, because I had a real Mac (Powerbook 15inch) before and found it to be way too fragile.

[Hagar]

Gotta say Leopard changes a lot of this. It is now possible to go out & buy a copy of os x 10.5, and with a few small adjustments install it on non-apple hardware.

 

OSX86 has been claimed to be legally & morally wrong...

 

Morally: I'd say that as long as you have bought your copy of leopard, this mitigates a great deal of what people see as the "immoral" aspects of osx86. I'd turn this around & question the morality of DRM & the restriction of what I can do with an OS I bought.

 

Which leaves legally: the things that make osx86 illegal are all related to the licensing of the OS combined with the laws of the country in which it is used..

 

Previously, it was the case that:

Any copy of os x installed on a pc was a pirated copy by definition. The OS was not available for retail. now it is.

 

which leaves: the EULA, and the APSL

 

EULA: this clearly states that the licence is for Apple labelled machinery only, however many (particularly european) countries have ruled that EULA's constitute post-sales conditions being imposed on the customer, and as such are invalid.

 

APSL: up until the change in the APSL, modification of the kernel from source was entirely legal. Since the change, this has become a grey area, as modification is no longer allowed, (which makes one wonder what is meant by "open source" in the license) However, as some countries do not allow licenses that prohibit modification for the purpose of increased functionality (e.g. France) clearly there are cases where this doesn't apply. Additionally, non-invasive methods (such as the EFI bootloader trick) don't modify the original code at all (or it uses code from before the APSL change) and as such allows installation unaffected by the APSL.

 

In short, although some may disagree with my moral point-of-view, it is clearly the case that if you live in a non-EULA country, there are now ways of installing OS X on a pc without breaking the law.

[Spoone]

Just an opinion here, but if Apple would simply release OSX for a generic PC, there'd be none of this argument...though that's likely to never happen.

 

On another note...maybe they're fully aware of the OSx86 phenomenon and are using it for development.

Who knows?

[nintendo_skyline]

I agree with spoone. I do wonder if Apple ever did release mac os for generic PCs would it be able to take away microsoft's thunder.

[CLiDE FTW!!1]

I agree with spoone. I do wonder if Apple ever did release mac os for generic PCs would it be able to take away microsoft's thunder.

Highly improbable. HP and Dell are both Microsoft's {censored}.

[Hagar]

Highly improbable. HP and Dell are both Microsoft's {censored}.

 

Dell already applied to Apple and was refused.