OSx86

[A Nonny Moose]

There are multiple arguments going on here, and I feel this thread needs to be closed and spin offs need to come out of it such as:

 

1. The legality/morality of modifying Apple's code to force it to run on $50 Dell boxes instead of buying a new Mac.

 

2. The good and bad things that have come out of the Hackintosh community.

[hab]

just because it's illegal does'nt mean it's wrong!

[GBK.Xscape]

haha what a oxymoron

[AppleLegal]

There are multiple arguments going on here, and I feel this thread needs to be closed and spin offs need to come out of it such as:

 

1. The legality/morality of modifying Apple's code to force it to run on $50 Dell boxes instead of buying a new Mac.

Not needed. It makes the thread better to have it all in one place instead of quoting multiple threads. And where's a $50 Dell? i want one.

I think it's time for a 'the hackintosh karma project'. Maybe this site, or something like osx86project, can host a donation button we can all dump, say, 10 bucks in. The money can then go to a good (politically neutral) cause like aids research or, ofcourse, we could use it to buy the programmers at apple random thinkgeek swag - because those are the people that have been working so hard to give us the OS we all love so much.

 

I personally feel kinda bad for stealing OSX, and in the spirit of karma, would certainly donate some of the cash that apple isn't willing to take from me through legal channels to a good cause.

 

Any thoughts?

Bad idea. insanelymac = osx86 stuff, not a generic political platform. Besides, that would be a giant PR stunt and there's enough of those already.

 

do you even remember that the kernel of OS X is open?

You remember the EULA that you skip through every time you install osx86? It's still a legal document, whether you think its pointless or not.

[MacMoof]

I have to wonder if violating a EULA is actually 'illegal', and can result in criminal charges, or if it's a civil act, which (worst case) would result in a civil lawsuit.

 

If I own a legit copy of OSX 10.4 and use it on 'non Apple' hardware is that breaking a law, or just a civil agreement?

 

And what, exactly, constitutes 'Apple Hardware'?

 

If I buy a stick of after market RAM, a new hard drive, and a faster Intel CPU from Newegg, and stuff them in my MacMini, does it cease to be 'Apple Hardware'?

 

If I have a P4 CPU and Intel Motherboard in an Apple case, with an Apple hard drive, Apple DVD ROM drive, Apple keyboard, and Apple Monitor, what kind of computer is it?

 

What if I buy a MacPro logic board, populate it with Newegg sourced CPU, Fan, RAM, and Video Card, and cram it all in an old ATX case. Could I run 10.4 on that without violating the EULA?

[AppleLegal]

I have to wonder if violating a EULA is actually 'illegal', and can result in criminal charges, or if it's a civil act, which (worst case) would result in a civil lawsuit.

 

If I own a legit copy of OSX 10.4 and use it on 'non Apple' hardware is that breaking a law, or just a civil agreement?

 

And what, exactly, constitutes 'Apple Hardware'?

 

If I buy a stick of after market RAM, a new hard drive, and a faster Intel CPU from Newegg, and stuff them in my MacMini, does it cease to be 'Apple Hardware'?

 

If I have a P4 CPU and Intel Motherboard in an Apple case, with an Apple hard drive, Apple DVD ROM drive, Apple keyboard, and Apple Monitor, what kind of computer is it?

 

What if I buy a MacPro logic board, populate it with Newegg sourced CPU, Fan, RAM, and Video Card, and cram it all in an old ATX case. Could I run 10.4 on that without violating the EULA?

Unless ya bought it from Apple, its not apple hardware. If your Apple-Certified in hardware, the parts might be considered 'Apple Certified' If theres any parts that arent apple, its not a full Apple computer then. And they do have the right to decline you service/support if you change it around

 

Oh, and opening your box without being hardware certified breaks your invalidates your warenty.

 

You cant 'buy' a mac pro logic board anyway. Apple doesnt sell em.

[MacMoof]

You can buy anything, my friend.. you just have to know where to look.

 

Won't be long before a MacPro gets written off in an insurance claim and it's parts sold off on eBay.. or a repair center will order a logic board only to find out that wasn't the problem.

 

Stuff like that happens all the time.. and as time progresses, will happen with more frequency.

 

Or let's say in a year or so my MacPro goes out of warranty and the power supply decides to go belly up. As opposed to buying an expensive original part, I just transfer everything to an ATX case, and use a modified ATX power supply.. while i'm at it, I replace the hard drive, and bump up the processors a notch or two.

 

Would I be breaking the EULA by installing the copy of OSX that shipped originally with my MacPro on the resulting 'Frankentosh'?

 

I'm not concerned with service/support.. what i'm asking is, since it's my understanding that the Apple EULA prohibits the running of OSX on 'non Apple' hardware, what exactly constitutes 'Apple' hardware, and could, technically, Apple 'forbid' you to run their OS on such a machine?

 

Over the years i've owned and built many such 'cobbled together' Macs.. usually taking a G4 or G5 system board and stuffing them in ATX cases, flashing PC video cards to work with MacOS, using garden variety PC RAM, Hard Drives, and CD/DVD drives, and modified PC power supplies to run them.

 

I've bought several copies of MacOS over the years to run on them, never once bothering to read the EULA.. but now with all the x86 'legality' being discussed, and it mentioned the EULA actually prohibits use of the OS on 'non Apple' hardware, I start to wonder.

 

Sure, I know overclocking a chip in a G3 iMac, or even replacing a G4 tower CPU with a faster chip voids any warranty it may have had, but does that modification and changing of the hardware make the system, as a whole, 'non Apple' and subsequently mean running OSX is prohibited by the EULA?

[sandmanfvrga]

To me the OSX86 debate is a mute point. OSX is great, Apple is a great company, but the high price tag of Apple hardware is makes it unattainable to many people. Even the more affordable Macs, the mini, are so unupgradable, that they are a turn off to normal PC tower uses. Now I have said that with core 2 duo, the iMac is a great value, but if you look at it, you can build PCs that are just as good, but much lower cost. Right now the Mac Pro is the only upgradable solution, the iMac is a good/great value, especially entry level one if you just do daily tasks etc. but you are stuck with the machine. The Mac Mini is an outstanding value, but you are more stuck with what you have. The laptop scene is rediculous to me. Apple laptops are rip offs, my opinion so NO blasting me, cause you can get laptops with the same power for half the cost (Macbooks at least).

 

I am getting me a Mac. I will probably get me an iMac, so I can get away from the CRT I got (20 inch monster) and a good graphics chip will help in some things, with the gig of ram is great. Would I go to the 20 inch or 24? Hell no, to much money for something that is so stagnant in design. The Mac Mini is a nice option, but so damn stagnant.

 

I think IF Apple would make sub $1000 towers, that are upgradable and affordable, more Macs would be sold to more PC enthusiasts and normal people that usually go to Walmart and Bestbuy for the affordable Windows tower machnine. These sell cause, *gasp*, you can add drives and such over time, and many want an investment that lasts and can be improved over time. Yes many hardcore Mac fnas will say you can do with iMacs and Mac Minis but truthfully, you really can compare adding new internal hard dives, adding new dvd/cd burners and adding PCI/AGP/PCIe cards over time to adding an external USB or Fireware drive. Something in between the Mac Pro and the Mac Mini would be great. Until Apple does this or lower some prices, many will go with Vista since they can get "more" for their money.

[Soündless]

i just run osx86 for fun, my powermac g3 and macbook pro are my actual workhorses. osx86 is just a hobby, +it made me decide to get an intel mac!

[Gone Like The Wind]

I think one of the many things that killed the Mac Clones was the Mac Clones themself. See there was never a build it off your shelfer thing. You always had to buy a hardware/software bundle this was done by the mac cloners they I am betting only payed "X amount" per copy. However look at it today if it were to be done apple directly would sell it making full $$ on each copy sold. This is retail cost too there would be no "OEM" loopholes like Windows has there would be no problem there. Support? well apple would of course not support random hardware lets leave that up to apple to think of a creative way of having it say "not supported unless on apple hardware"

 

Things are vastly differnet than the clone days IMO I think anybody can see that. It would be apple selling everything as apple is apple!

[hugodrax]

As a long term PC user (since the XT days) and all systems at home have been PC's build from scratch I now own 3 Apples

I purchased a Pro tower for home, and one for my office (23inch apple monitor, 4GB ram,1900XT,2.66) and left my PC building days behind me. What got me into OS X was the Mini when it came out and it gave me a taste of OS X and I got hooked and the intel edition of the macs was the final push.

 

I say OS X on clone boxes is not a bad thing it itself if it offers you the opportunity to get a taste of what OS X brings to the table and you eventually do the right thing and support Apple and the continuation of OS X by purchasing atleast one of the workstations (atleast the Mini for 499)

 

Remember if no one supports Apple with dollars, OS X will dissapear like other great systems (ie the Amiga for example)

 

And you cant get that cool Case that those Pro towers come with

[joe75]

OS X will never disappear until it is discontinued and I will never run it on a Apple product

Edited January 14, 2007 by joe75

[adaminc]

I'm a switcher of sorts.

 

I have a hackintosh running osx, I really like osx over windows, but I dont think I would ever buy a mac. I understand why apple does what they do with restricting hardware on there products, it makes it easier for them to make a stable and reliable product, doesnt mean I have to like it though. If for some reason I couldnt run osx on my pc laptop anymore, I would go back to windows simply because apple charges to much for relatively cheap hardware.

[Universe_JDJ]

Agreed. Apple charges an largely unnecessary amount for its hardware. If they lower prices, buying and using legitimate OS X would be much more appealing.

[Schwinn555]

Apple has for many years done nearly all of it's own research & development . In contrast Intel & Microsoft has done most of the R&D for the other PC companies . Apple would be long gone or a devision of another company if they couldn't sell their products at a price that covers everything plus a profit for shareholders. Higher prices are a fact of life for an independent company that doesn't buy their OS & everything else from someone else. Lets be clear if too large a number of people install OSX on a non-Apple econo box an sells of Mac slide it will have to be blocked or Apple would soon be no more. Apple is smart enough to know this at least with Steve Jobs in charge. The numbers have been ran and just not enough copies of OSX would be sold for it to work. As long as our number is fairly small it will likely be over looked.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Schwinn555

[Gone Like The Wind]

Schwinn they do buy everything but the OS from everybody else.. Motherboards from Asus, cpu's from Intel, Ram from Hynix or whoever now, GFX cards from ATI/Intel/Nvidia etc.. Its all done by other people apple just puts it together.

 

There is nothing that seperates a Intel Mac from regular hardware except the EFI that is designed to cripple OSX from running on beige boxes and their hardware. Yet this somehow justifies the cost of the hardware? I think not I will stick with Linux untill the time comes that I can purchase it to run on a beige box.

 

Nor do I think it would not sell enough copies. I know alot of people that would switch in a moment.

[Schwinn555]

Your right Apple does buy most of the componets from others. However they are in many/most cases built for Apple to Apple specs. Apple still has to do the R&D . This means providing drivers for everything so it works. On the WinTel side of things drivers are mostly provided by the componet sellers and or Microsoft. I know it's a waste of time to argue with those who just want it for free but I think it important for people to realize free would soon mean no longer available due to lack of income.

Edited January 16, 2007 by Schwinn555

[Gone Like The Wind]

Sure they are built to apple spec's but its nothing strange for any motherboard manufacturer. Be it intel, asus whoever...

 

As for the drivers? I call BS on that one.. Look at the driver pool that they can use in darwin the hax forcedeth drivers and the lot show that Linux drivers work and being based on freebsd come on man the drivers are easy.

 

I do not want it free I am even willing to pay 200$ for it... I really want it so I can build a upgrade to my G5 iMac I dont want another iMac and I cannot justify a MacPro so I wont be buying anything apple for a while till either they cater to what I want in hardware specs in cost or its free. Like I said I will just stick with linux till then

 

I like apple but I think you are giving them too much credit. The only credit I give them is they are really good at making hardware suck... TPM chips, EFI, Graphics Card limitations, proprietery harddrive holders that are overpriced, crippled hardware thats what their MO is now.. Look at the AppleTV, iPhone they are crippleware. If anything their R&D is how to screw the consumer with lockin hardware. Given this is why they never gain hardly any marketshare.

 

Any off the shelf components are no better than apple's they are the same just apple has added "crapware" to it. Sure when they used PPC there was the arguement that apple had differnet hardware but now they are intel people think this still flys? What is wrong with thinking is it the RDF still? I dont get it...

 

Seriously though Apple has lost me as a customer for the time being..

[mscman]

There is nothing that seperates a Intel Mac from regular hardware except the EFI that is designed to cripple OSX from running on beige boxes and their hardware. Yet this somehow justifies the cost of the hardware? I think not I will stick with Linux untill the time comes that I can purchase it to run on a beige box.

 

EFI is not meant to cripple the OS. In fact, it's implemented by Apple for the opposite reason: it is a VAST improvement over the BIOS found in most "beige boxes".

 

Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI)

 

The fact that motherboard manufacturers haven't implemented EFI on many computers is simply a consequence of the fact Windows doesn't support EFI ouside of 64-bit and server versions. I'm sure this was seen as an advantage to Apple, but it wasn't the only reason EFI was chosen.

[BlueAvenue]

Having heard Rush Limbaugh rave about his Macs over the years, i jumped at the chance to try out OS X Tiger.

Had to do a lot of reading and did encounter some anomalies but i succeded in the end. It was a very good

learning experience.

I do not see where it is any better than PCLinuxOS but it is different in a good way. I do not feel guilty about

using it since i did not steal from anybody, it was given to me for free.The onus is on the guy who did the hacking.

Everything works except the DVD Player, guess i'll have to google around for some help on that issue.

Sure is a hoot putting Mac OS X in my signature on various forums.

[Soündless]

they do sell g4 logicboards, cpus and other compatible parts. you could build a "legal" hackintosh like that

[osx_on_p7]

um, all i have to say about this one is this:

 

i became curious when os x had bsd under the hood. when i got the chance, i installed osx86 on one of my notebooks. after years of making fun of mac nerds, i now might be considered a mac geek.

 

when a project manager asked my opinion on a new batch of notebooks, i suggested he check out the macbooks as, they a fairly cheap considering the hardware they're pushing.

 

bottom line:

a PO was placed for a sizable number of macbooks (pros!) @ the corporate level.

 

opinion:

i think apple has gotten a fair shake from the deal

 

almost forgot to mention, i'm getting one!

Edited February 15, 2007 by osx_on_p7

[track09]

Having heard Rush Limbaugh rave about his Macs over the years, i jumped at the chance to try out OS X Tiger.

Had to do a lot of reading and did encounter some anomalies but i succeded in the end. It was a very good

learning experience.

I do not see where it is any better than PCLinuxOS but it is different in a good way. I do not feel guilty about

using it since i did not steal from anybody, it was given to me for free.The onus is on the guy who did the hacking.

Everything works except the DVD Player, guess i'll have to google around for some help on that issue.

Sure is a hoot putting Mac OS X in my signature on various forums.

 

 

Judging by your sig, the reason that DVD player doesn't work is because you don't have a fully supported graphics card. What this means is you don't have OpenGL acceleration enabled, which DVD player relies on, so it won't function. In turn, you'll find Quartz Extreme and Core Image are disabled, and you will see many more applications (a lot of which require them, since all current real macs have OGL/QE/CI), will not work. What you need to do is search, I heard there is OGL/QE support for ATI ATM (Not sure about CI), and that should fix most problems. OGL and QE are crucial for many apps to work, such as iLife and pro apps, Core Image is just for effects, and not really neccisary. The upcoming Core animation in leopard also relies on accelerated graphics, and iLife '07 will utilize it. No word on support for that yet.

[EPDM]

I can't really see Apple selling OS X for non macs, it would mean a really big shift in their business model.

 

And if they did, would the result be a beter OS? The more hardware apple have to support the less time and money they have to improve OS X.

 

Morally: I own several macs, to my mind this justify messing around with OSX X86 and it's not like I use it for anything.

 

I see nothing wrong with using x86 for education purposes, but if you use it for work, you should go out a buy a mac.

 

Not everybody is content with Apple's hardware. I'd rather have the higher end components that i can buy from assorted shops then Apple's mediocre hardware with horrible QC.

 

In fact if apple sent out what components work then you could build yourself a much better PC then Apple's iMacs.

 

Or what about this: Suppose you have the money to get an iMac but doesn't like it's look or that monitor. What options do YOU have? Buy an Madc Pro? Or suppose you want that iMac 20" BUT with the NVidia 7300 GT card (which is only reserved for that 24" model)?

 

Not very flexible if you ask me.

 

If Apple just tell us which main components are required to run OSX (we already know the GMA950 and the accompained 945G-chipset that includes this GPU, ATI X1800 and NVidia 7300GT) then we build the systems to OUR liking.

 

That already means more choice to suit more ppl's needs.

 

Regards,

 

EPDM

[moonislune]

OS X will never disappear until it is discontinued and I will never run it on a Apple product

 

Sorry to ruin your parade, but next time you don't get paid at your job, don't complain. By never running OSX on an Apple product, you're not paying your dues to some people and of course a corporation that spent lots of time and $$$ to get such a nice product out. You may think I'm a stinker for saying this, but if every pc and mac user did what you did, there would be no Apple. If you use something regularly, like an OS, eventually shell out the $$$ or go to linux. Lots of people like you started with the hack boxes and then bought real macs. Best wishes...its nothing personal.

Edited February 16, 2007 by moonislune