Windows Vista

[Maxintosh]

There aren't many people with this issues

I take it you aren't a tech, and get most of your information "from the Internet". We see customers bringing in these machines pretty much everyday, each and every week, week after week, month after month... like a wild virus that there's no cure for. Some ask for refunds. Some switch to XP pro. Some switch to OS X. Either way we love vista. It keeps the cash registers ringing for one reason or another Vista may not be good for consumers, but it sure is a God send for businesses

[scj312]

BSoD's are user error. Windows warns you when drivers are unsigned. It's advised you don't install them. If you do, you basically agree to the unwritten agreement that states "Windows is not responsible if you destroy your computer because you installed unsigned drivers after we warned you."

I use MS-signed WHQL Nvidia drivers, and I got that after trying to restart DWM after it crashed once due to too many apps running.

[pyrates]

BTW did you know that when you buy a copy of vista that you don't 'own' it? That's right, you paid a LOT of money for it but it doesn't belong to you! Per microsoft the software is only licensed, not sold. That right there would keep me from buying it

 

There's only one wrong thing with that statement. All software is licensed. Including your beloved leopard.

 

As for the rest of your piece, it's all opinion. Since you relied on an apple commercial as your source of information.

 

If someone wants to downgrade because they don't happen to like the way a feature works, then that's just a matter of personal choice.

If however someone is forced to downgrade (read vista --> XP) because they can't even boot up their OS, then that's a whole other matter.

 

If my computer didn't boot up, I would call the manufacturer and get it replaced. And saying that no one is having problems with leopard except usability is a load of BS.

 

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/2007/11/22/mor...pple/index.html

http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/11/13/users.miss.info.pane/

http://tomkarpik.com/articles/massive-data...bug-in-leopard/

http://netmesh.info/jernst/Personal/osx-le...on=200711081532

http://www.scripting.com/stories/2007/11/0...ithLeopard.html

 

Not true. OS X has the same general licensing scheme as windows XP and other windows programs. Vista is the only OS where Microsoft specifically states "The software is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights." You can read all of the vista licensing schemes by clicking here.

 

And read this from the leopard eula:

 

1. General. The Mac OS X Server software (including Boot ROM code), and any third party software, disk images, documentation and any fonts accompanyingthis License whether pre-installed on Apple-labeled hardware, on disk, in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (collectively the “AppleSoftware”) are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. (“Apple”) for use only under the terms of this License, and Apple reserves all rights not expressly grantedto you.

 

And these here are my favorite reads:

 

http://scobleizer.com/2007/11/17/the-brand-promise-of-apple/

http://www.marketingpilgrim.com/2007/11/ap...-to-repent.html

[robotskip]

2 photos are not a list of bugs.

 

Come on, there are apparently so many bugs, what's so hard about listing some?

[Colonel]

2 photos are not a list of bugs.

 

Come on, there are apparently so many bugs, what's so hard about listing some?

For starterts, here's a fun one..

 

http://www.computerworld.com/action/articl...ticleId=9011858

[CLiDE FTW!!1]

If someone wants to downgrade because they don't happen to like the way a feature works, then that's just a matter of personal choice.

 

If however someone is forced to downgrade (read vista --> XP) because they can't even boot up their OS, then that's a whole other matter.

Not true. OS X has the same general licensing scheme as windows XP and other windows programs. Vista is the only OS where Microsoft specifically states "The software is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights." You can read all of the vista licensing schemes by clicking here.

Um, yes, it's true. Leopard is licensed software. Period.

 

In fact, it almost says it word-for-word, like it does in Vista.

 

are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. (“Apple”) for use only under the terms of this License, and Apple reserves all rights not expressly granted to you.

Source: My Leopard disc.

 

And people are downgrading not because features don't work -- it's because programs don't work. In fact, people, too, are having issues even BOOTING into Leopard on their APPLE computer!

[Maxintosh]

Come on, there are apparently so many bugs

Well... you got that part right

 

what's so hard about listing some

...getting blisters on your fingers?

 

Just before vista came out of beta it had around 2500 bugs and MS only took care of around 1k of them. I can certainly understand why someone wouldn't want to sit on a website site and list them all, or even half of them, just to please a certain microsoft fanboy. However I will list as many as time allows right after the holidays. From what I've been reading you're obviously not very open minded robotskip, so if we miss a few of them in our list I hope you'll excuse us

[robotskip]

Colonel, as per the second paragraph of that article it has been patched. Come on, there are so many bugs, surely you could list several which haven't been patched already, months ago. Also, with SP1 for Vista they're relaxing WGA, removing the 'kill switch' (Which wasn't a kill switch, but hey, the media is dumb and biased), etc.

 

Maxiontosh, you do not need to type enough so that it would give you blisters. If you guys had typed a list when I first asked who knows how many times ago you wouldn't need to resort to petty ad hominem attacks like 'Microsoft fanboy' and please prove how I'm not open minded, if I wasn't why the hell would I stand by my mantra of using whatever is the best for me and what I like the most?

 

So how about instead of stupid comments like 'Microsoft fanboy' and 'obviously not very open minded' you use your precious time and fragile fingers to detail some bugs.

 

 

You guys can't, can you? If you could you wouldn't resort to patched bugs, hypocritical comments about blisters, pathetic personal attacks and so on.

[Colonel]

Robotskip, why are you even here?

[Maxintosh]

you wouldn't need to resort to petty ad hominem attacks like 'Microsoft fanboy'

I can certainly understand how someone might misconstrue that as an ad hominem attack, and we can only pray that you can understand how others can see it not as an attack, but as a matter of fact.

 

prove how I'm not open minded

First we'd like to thank you for asking such an easy question to answer. We do appreciate it.

 

Step 1.) Simply go to this website.

 

Step 2.) Click on the Search link in the upper left hand corner of the screen.

 

Step 3.) When the new page opens up type in 'robotskip' under where it says "Filter by Member Name".

 

Step 4.) Click on the "Match Exact Name" checkbox.

 

Step 5.) Under "Search by Keywords" type in "microsoft".

 

Step 6.) Click on the "Perform the Search" button.

 

Step 7.) Read what it finds...

 

This method is proven to work good each and every time, but if you're pressed for time you could just read this thread. It serves the same general purpose.

 

if I wasn't why the hell would I stand by my mantra of using whatever is the best for me and what I like the most?

That's not being open-minded, that's being biased and partial. An open-minded person is always willing to consider new ideas and is unprejudiced.

[scj312]

Robotskip, why are you even here?

I've been wondering that too. Maybe works for MS?

[Guest MrRogers]

@ Robotskip

 

[robotskip]

Colonel, so you can not provide any bugs? Oh well, thanks trying. Happy holidays.

 

Maxintosh, almost amusing but not damning nor proving and from that thread it seems all my posts either contained questions or information most of which was from third parties. Also, take note of my kindness towards Joe75 despite his behaviour (IIRC). I fail to see how those posts indicate any type of closed-mind, please clarify what you mean. Edit: My links to individual posts are incorrect, I'll fix them.

 

I am always willing to consider new ideas and am mostly unprejudiced. Speaking of which, called anyone a Microsoft fanboy lately? Please prove how I do not consider new ideas or am prejudiced.

 

The thing is, while I'm accused of being closed-minded and the like, the very people who accuse me or just most others on here seem to be the one with closed minds and amusingly enough, I in fact seem to be one of the most open-minded here since I believe in one proving their comments (Hence why so many questions most of which go unanswered and links to others most of which are ignored, mocked or certain people like Forceman frame linking to others as some inaccurate, desperate attempt -- am I the only one who sees how retarded that logic is?) and in believing in one should research and see what is best for them and what they like the most.

 

That's why I stand by people not blatantly bashing Microsoft for seemingly no real reason other than some vain, petty ego boosting on the internets and doing research for themself outside of reading sensationalist stories on biased, prejudiced sites.. so, apparently I'm the closed-minded one yet I stand by this and seem to be one of the only objective people here.

 

Meowy, do all the tools on here who inanely and inaccurately bash Microsft working for FSF, Apple, Google, IBM or some other company? Gee, accusing someone of working for a company is really cool and well thought out. I'm sure some lackey on here will give you a pat on the back for your originality.

[Numberzz]

Windows Vista Supporter:

 

YOU

 

PHAIL

 

LIFE

[vbetts]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

 

I hate microsoft. As a company. Love the products. Happy with Vista.

[Wipeout]

Well here's my new take. After actually being able to use Vista on my peecee, I kind of realized, they didn't screw up that bad. I mean everything new has it's problems (the 360, for instance). Of course it's got it's problems (namely random BSODs, making you scan your HD at random times, are a few of my problems). But the fact is, they overshot their requirements, making people buy gaming PCs just to run the damn OS. So really, vbetts is right. It's not the OS, it's the company being and making people upgrade when they don't really want to.

[scj312]

Meowy, do all the tools on here who inanely and inaccurately bash Microsft working for FSF, Apple, Google, IBM or some other company? Gee, accusing someone of working for a company is really cool and well thought out. I'm sure some lackey on here will give you a pat on the back for your originality.

Usually there aren't many MS zealots.

[pyrates]

Just before vista came out of beta it had around 2500 bugs and MS only took care of around 1k of them. I can certainly understand why someone wouldn't want to sit on a website site and list them all, or even half of them, just to please a certain microsoft fanboy. However I will list as many as time allows right after the holidays. From what I've been reading you're obviously not very open minded robotskip, so if we miss a few of them in our list I hope you'll excuse us

 

And how many bugs are currently in leopard? Enough that Apple had to issue the 10.5.1 update 2 weeks after leopard's retail release.

[Maxintosh]

Apple had to issue the 10.5.1 update 2 weeks after leopard's retail release.

That's right, they had to, because Apple is committed to making 10.5 the best operating system on the planet, bar none! I just love it when you microsoft fanatics stick your foot in your mouth You're so excited to spit some words out on behalf of microsoft - that you don't even realize what you're saying. If those stuck with vista are lucky - microsoft will 'finally' be releasing vista SP1 in June/July '08 (a full year and a half after vista was released). And some say that vista SP1 won't actually be released until 2009 As you've already admitted, Apple released its first update in just two short weeks! Maybe it's because Apple cares more about its OS, or maybe it's because Leopard just doesn't have as many bugs to fix. Whatever the reason it's clear that vista is much more screwed up then even windows ME was Based on current test versions, vista SP1 will be over 1GB when uncompressed. By way of comparison, Windows XP--the whole thing--is only around three quarters of a gigabyte. LOL Hey I guess this must be that "WOW" factor that microsoft was talking about huh? No matter how you cut it, THAT'S a lot of bugs to fix, but that's OK, you MS fanboys can still stay in denial about vista if it makes you feel better, the bottom line however is that sticking your heads in the sand really isn't going to help you...

 

So here's the real question, is it vista SP1, OR is it Windows XP Service Pack 4? Considering that a lot of people refer to vista as "Windows XP Service Pack 3 with eye candy"

[CLiDE FTW!!1]

Vista SP1 in 2009?

Vista SP1 going to be 1GB?

 

This is coming from the guy that says Leopard isn't licensed.

 

 

Hey, did anyone else notice how Leopard's requirements are similar to Vista's? Yet, Vista runs better than Leopard on Macs? (in my testing, at least)

[vbetts]

So here's the real question, is it vista SP1, OR is it Windows XP Service Pack 4? Considering that a lot of people refer to vista as "Windows XP Service Pack 3 with eye candy"

 

I've never heard anyone refer to Vista as that...o_o

[Pentad]

Ok, I haven't read the whole thread but I read enough to want to add my thoughts to the discussion.

 

I am a CS Professor for Purdue University. I am also a beta tester for Microsoft (since Nashville - if any of you remember that?).

 

Windows Vista is not Microsoft at its best. Its slow, buggy, and NOT what the kids in Redmond promised in Longhorn. I personally was looking forward to WinFS as NTFS is a great FS but really showing its age. For the first time in my workings with Microsoft, I've seen them drop the ball. On all previous products, their dev cycle was top notch. Vista Development was an example of a company divided internally.

 

My humble opinion? I think the source code for Windows is a mess. I think that Bill knows it and Steve knows it. I also think that Bill is tired. I think he has done his bit for king and country and after realizing how bad the source code for Vista is, he wants to move on. He has brought the company this far and its time for somebody else to take over.

 

Also, Steve Ballmer is no Bill Gates. That might hurt Microsoft more than anything. Steve has some pretty big shoes to fill and I'm not sure that he can do it because 1) He is not a programmer, Gates was and that was a huge asset and 2) I don't think he is as business smart as Gates. That may sound harsh and I'm not trying to personally degrade him but Gates was a programmer AND a great business person. I think that Wallstreet will reflect this when Gates leaves for good.

 

 

Some questions about Vista we should be asking:

 

1. Let's not beat around the bush: What the hell were they doing for all those years? Why didn't they leverage the knowledge they gained from ME, XP, 2k, and 2k3 Srvr? This has been one of Microsoft's strengths in the past.

 

2. How did the insane copy bug get past Q/A? It was in the betas I saw. I reported it along with thousands of other folks.

 

3. From a CS Design perspective, UAC is horrible. I wrote in my bug reports that UAC will be a disaster for MS. You only get a few chances for a user to read what you're telling them. If you annoy them or bug them they will just start to click whatever button gets rid of your message. UAC is a mistake I expect from a first year CS student, not a multi-billion dollar company.

 

4. Where is the reason to upgrade to Vista? Windows 2000 was a business OS. Not many drivers for the consumer market and MS pushed 2k for the corporate world. XP was 2k with great driver support. Going from 98, 98SE, or godaweful ME was like night and day to XP. It was way more stable and offered many new features to the public was had not be exposed to NT. "What?? A task can crash and not take down the whole system??"

 

5. Windows 2003 Server's kernel is newer than XP's with some really great improvements. Its kernel has a number of new features including a rewritten job scheduler, thread manager, 4gb of memory support in *32bit* versions, and lots of bug fixes. In many ways, the Win2k3 kernel is faster compared to XP's. How did this turn into the Vista kernel?? (Also, why does Vista 32bit not support 4gb of memory?)

 

6. Lets talk drivers. Again, what was Microsoft thinking? Did anybody else find Nvida and ATi's response odd? First, why did it take both companies so long to get *good* drivers out the door for Vista? I mean it wasn't like they woke up one day and went "Oh, look at that! Microsoft has a new OS out! I guess we we should get to work writing drivers for it!"

 

Here are two companies that make good products with very mature drivers (fanboys need not flame me, sorry both are good companies). Yet it took both of them a very long time to get working drivers with good support? I mean, this is what they do, right? Make graphic cards and drivers? Microsoft had to be helping them with their drivers and products, yet it took both of them a long time to get working drivers? This is a huge red flag. If ATI or Nvidia had great driver support from day one and the other didn't, you could blame the the other graphic card manufacturer, but you didn't. You saw both companies struggle with their drivers. Well, that points to a driver/kernel/coding issue that must be much worse then we think.

 

Now add all the other driver issues from other companies and I think you start to get a better picture behind closed doors...something just isn't right.

 

7. No matter how you look at it, Vista is much slower compared to XP. I don't mean a little, I mean a lot. I would say anywhere between 15% to 20% depending on what you are doing. Copying large files for example is really, really slow. I would like to see some data regarding Vista's Anti-Piracy code. I have heard everything from 100 to a gazillion times a second Vista runs its anti-theft code. Well, how much CPU time is that eating?

 

Is it the kernel? Why is it so much slower compared to Win2k3 for example? Is it the new GUI? Well, I've seen the new GUI for Linux do some amazing graphics on less hardware.

 

 

Do I think Leopard is perfect? Nope. Do I think its faster compared to Tiger on my MBP. Yep. Do I think the features VS the price is a good deal? Yes, I do. Can I say the same for Vista Ultimate (which I own)? Nope. That is a lot of money for very little return.

 

Does Microsoft deserve to make the money they will off of Vista? No, they don't. They are going to force the market into buying it and they will not suffer the same wrath of the public another company would have to endure.

 

Will we 'grow' into Vista? Sure. My next Quad Core Notebook, et al will probably run Vista fine. Not that its still worth the Ultimate price mind you.

 

I will make one prediction: Windows 7 will be subscription based. Microsoft has always admired the Cable TV Industry. Getting people to pay per month for something is a great deal (for the company).

 

Office 2003 was going to offer a subscription based mode. It almost made it in to the RC versions when they canned the idea. You could rent Word, Excel, etc... or the whole thing for a month if you wanted. I put in my reports that people will not do that. They will go with an Open Source Office or just pirate Office 2k3.

 

Just my thoughts,

-P

[Maxintosh]

This is coming from the guy that says Leopard isn't licensed.

Hi fanboy wannabe, show me where I ever said that 10.5 was not licensed. Seems your comprehension skills are a bit lacking. Let's hope mommy and daddy get you an appointment with the optometrist after the holidays

 

...and ONLY time will tell when SP1 comes out and how big it is, and all of your close-mindedness on the topic can't change that. Merry Christmas

 

Did anybody else find Nvida and ATi's response odd? First, why did it take both companies so long to get *good* drivers out the door for Vista? ...This is a huge red flag.

Excellent point Pentad. Actually the entire post was good. Love your signature

[CLiDE FTW!!1]

OS X is also licensed, not sold.

Not true.

Maybe you should focus on your own mental issues before targeting others.

 

PS. You should consider getting the Pickle... er... Apple out of your rear, since it's getting to your head.

 

Speaking about wannabes, by the way, do you even own a Mac? It's kinda hard to believe this when you think that OS X isn't licensed...

[Maxintosh]

Maybe you should focus on your own mental issues before targeting others.

...or, maybe you could do us all a favor and learn what comprehension is all about. When we said 'not true' it was in direct reference to when you were trying to say that vista and OS X were the same. If you would have been honest with everyone here you would have also posted the very next sentence which read "OS X has the same general licensing scheme as windows XP and other windows programs.". Oh well, at least you tried. Perhaps being a politician is in your future, but let's not jump ahead of ourselves just yet. Let's wait to see what that optometrist says first