apowerr Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Source (CNET) PALO ALTO, Calif.--Mac clone maker Psystar plans to file its answer to Apple's copyright infringement lawsuit Tuesday as well as a countersuit of its own, alleging that Apple engages in anticompetitive business practices. Miami-based Psystar, owned by Rudy Pedraza, will sue Apple under two federal laws designed to discourage monopolies and cartels, the Sherman Antitrust Act and the Clayton Antitrust Act, saying Apple's tying of the Mac OS to Apple-labeled hardware is "an anticompetitive restrain of trade," according to attorney Colby Springer of antitrust specialists Carr & Ferrell. Psystar is requesting that the court find Apple's EULA void, and is asking for unspecified damages. Springer said his firm has not filed any suits with the Federal Trade Commission or any other government agencies. The answer and countersuit will be filed Tuesday afternoon in U.S. District Court for Northern California. Pedraza attended a press conference his lawyers called to present how Psystar will defend its its OpenComputer Mac clone, which has been for sale online since April. Psystar's attorneys are calling Apple's allegations of Psystar's copyright infringement "misinformed and mischaracterized." Psystar argues that its OpenComputer product is shipped with a fully licensed, unmodified copy of Mac OS X, and that the company has simply "leveraged open source-licensed code including Apple's OS" to enable a PC to run the Mac operating system. Pedraza says he wants to make Apple's Mac OS "more accessible" by offering it on less expensive hardware than Apple. "My goal is to provide an alternative, not to free the Mac OS," said Pedraza. "What we want to do is to provide an alternative, an option...It's not that people don't want to use Mac OS, many people are open to the idea, but they're not used to spending an exorbitant amount of money on something that is essentially generic hardware." Apple will have 30 days to respond to Pystar's counter claim, and so far has declined to comment on the case. Other legal experts say Psystar faces a tough legal challenge in proving Apple has engaged in antitrust behavior by loading its software on its own hardware and thereby allegedly harming consumers and competitors. Psystar's ability to prevail on the issue of having the latitude to load Apple's OS on its own hardware, given it has a licensing agreement with the company, may prove an easier road to hoe, legal experts note. A newcomer to the PC scene, Psystar caused a stir when it first went online selling white box Macs earlier this year. The site went down hours after it opened for business because the company was overwhelmed with orders for the OpenComputer, originally called the OpenMac, which was then changed to its current name. And the site went down several more times as its payment-processing company pulled its services from the Psystar site. Psystar managed to stay shrouded in a bit of mystery for a while, until intrepid gadget blog readers joined the press in fleshing out some details about the company. Psystar eventually got back online with a new payment-processing service, and it continues to take orders for the OpenComputer and OpenPro Computer. When Apple finally did file suit against Psystar in July, it surprised nearly no one--except perhaps Pedraza. He said he had no contact with Apple before legal papers were filed against his company. Customarily, there is some sort of communication between companies before lawsuits are filed. For now, Pedraza says it will be "business as usual" at company headquarters. Though he said there was a "slight" downward dip in sales once Apple filed its suit, he plans to go ahead with making servers, and soon, a mobile product, which he said will be "like a notebook." But he refused to offer more detail. More to come... CNET News' Dawn Kawamoto contributed to this story. Pretty big news for OSx86 perhaps as an outcome of this we will be fully 'legal' and not in violation of Apple's restrictive EULA. Rudy Pedraza is right on the money when he claims that people are open towards using OS 10, but don't want to pay Apple's ridiculous price premiums on normal (and often out of date) hardware. Personally I'm going to have to side with Psystar on this one as I feel that Apple's current EULA for Mac OS 10 is absurd: You pay $125 for software, and then can only install it on certain machines? How do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iSkylla Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Pedraza is nothing more than a thief stealing developers' work and selling it for profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattTS Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I find it ridiculous that if I buy Windows Vista, I can't use it on my PowerPC computers! I find it ridiculous that if I buy electronics in the US, I can't use the same power adapter in the UK! I find it ridiculous that if I buy a PS3 game, I can't use it on my Wii! Getting my message yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtomek Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I don't consider Pedraza a thief, I am also on his side too. When Apple is using $1000 of hardware and giving you a $1000 fee for it to be apple-labeled ($2000 computer), it is quite ridiculous. Apple is just looking at profit margins, and nothing else, and realizing that selling OSX alone is not how they make money in the computing industry. Apple doesn't have to do any work, the can still only provide drivers for their hardware. Also, @iSkylla, why wouldn't you consider a company that built computers and sold them with the Linux OS thieves if they are stealing many developers' work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfuilrez Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 rtomek, the difference between what Psystar is doing, and some one selling a PC with Linux on it, is simple. Apple created OS X to go with their hardware, and be sold exclusively by them, for profit. The Linux kernel, and everything that goes into a standard freely distributed Linux distro, was created to be given out for free by anyone so long as it included what was required by the GPL (or whatever license the various software packages happen to be written in) and authors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGJulius Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I find it ridiculous that if I buy Windows Vista, I can't use it on my PowerPC computers!I find it ridiculous that if I buy electronics in the US, I can't use the same power adapter in the UK! I find it ridiculous that if I buy a PS3 game, I can't use it on my Wii! Getting my message yet? Even though what you said is true there's a big difference in this and the Apple/Psystar debate. Windows Vista is NOT supported on the PPC architecture PS3 Games are NOT supported on the Wii Console OS X IS supported on the x86 architecture, but apple is only limiting the hardware to what THEY sell. Honestly Psystar is guilty on the copyright issue. They sold copyrighted software on computers without the owners permission. However, I would like to see how this whole thing plays out. It would be hilarious if Psystar won and Apple EULA was void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitkat54 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Personally I'm going to have to side with Psystar on this one as I feel that Apple's current EULA for Mac OS 10 is absurd: You pay $125 for software, and then can only install it on certain machines? How do you guys think? I actually think both sides might end up winning their respective suits if the case goes to trial. Psystar is clearly violating copyright law with their updates. However, you can rule for apple on copyright, and still find the EULA invalid, as well as anti-trust violations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stellarola Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I think this is bringing too much unwanted attention to this community. I'd prefer Apple stay in their corner, and I'll stay in mine. Oh and F*** you Rudy. -Stell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticus C* Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I find it ridiculous that if I buy Windows Vista, I can't use it on my PowerPC computers! It is not M$'s problem, it the maker of the MAC PC's... Now you can install it on new MACs because Apple gives a damn since intelmacs out... You would install it on PowerPC if Apple allowed you to Complain to Apple not M$ Getting the message yet? I find it ridiculous that if I buy electronics in the US, I can't use the same power adapter in the UK! You can buy a 1-2 $ converter/inverter adapter and still use it... It is a Government Policy and Strategy Complain to Government Getting the message I find it ridiculous that if I buy a PS3 game, I can't use it on my Wii! Now you are talking out of your bums? Comparing Apples and Oranges... You cant complain to mercedes because their engine wont fit to your toyota's chasis... Complain to toyota to make it mercedes convertible chasis... Not Mercedes... They make their own cars... and It is unique to their standard... But both uses standard juices to start and go... Getting my message yet? I suppose you are getting it... It is not M$ blocking you from installing whatever you want, it is Apple! Although I dont like Psystar's initial start up strategy by dumping their dirt on these forums, I m on their side against Apple... Apple should modify their eula, and allow the osx to be legal on other PCs... It is a software, where they only do the UI on top of a standard OS... Charging $125 is not important, but fixing it Apple only is! and it is ridicilous... It is not a firmware for a specific hardware... for god's sake... it is a PC, nicely designed, but still using off the self parts anyone can buy and build himself, for almost half the price for most of the hardware devices it is selling... Steve himself, admited on a talk show, saying they use standard parts, but make unique interface that makes Apple, Apple. For unique interface should u charge double? or should you limit its use? Court will answer the questions hopefully... It is usa, unique laws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Descalzo Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I think this is bringing too much unwanted attention to this community. I'd prefer Apple stay in their corner, and I'll stay in mine. If Psystar wins, won't that legitimize what this community is doing? I think I'm overlooking something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigPimpin Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Apple should modify their eula, and allow the osx to be legal on other PCs... It would be better if the courts actually rule that EULAs are illegal and unenforceable, once and for all. You also miss the point that osx is already legal on other PCs. Just because it goes against Apple's wishes doesn't mean it's illegal. (OT: Your use of color to mark up prior posts is annoying.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattTS Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 It is not M$'s problem, it the maker of the MAC PC's... Now you can install it on new MACs because Apple gives a damn since intelmacs out... You would install it on PowerPC if Apple allowed you to The POWER architecture wasn't just used by Apple, it's developed in part by IBM. It is Microsoft's fault for not compiling for PPC. You can buy a 1-2 $ converter/inverter adapter and still use it... It is a Government Policy and Strategy Psystar wants Apple to support regular PC out of the box. Using their argument, the electronics maker should support my UK socket out of the box. The converter you mention is the same as the JaS/Kalyway/iATKOS DVDs you use. They convert OS X to make it compatible with regular PCs. Now you are talking out of your bums? Comparing Apples and Oranges... You cant complain to mercedes because their engine wont fit to your toyota's chasis... Let's imagine OS X is Apple's engine, for Apple cars. You are complaining that Apple's engine isn't working quite right in your {brand here} chasis. It is a software, where they only do the UI on top of a standard OS... Charging $125 is not important, but fixing it Apple only is! and it is ridicilous... It is not a firmware for a specific hardware... for god's sake... it is a PC, nicely designed, but still using off the self parts anyone can buy and build himself, for almost half the price for most of the hardware devices it is selling... Steve himself, admited on a talk show, saying they use standard parts, but make unique interface that makes Apple, Apple. For unique interface should u charge double? or should you limit its use? Court will answer the questions hopefully... It is usa, unique laws Well, seeing as it is Apple's, they can charge out the ass if they really want to. I decide to sell lemonade for £50. All I've done is taken things that were there already and put it in a nice glass. I am charging insanely, yes, but that's what I choose to charge. No-one can make me change that. (Apple has made good modifications to the BSD kernel in the form of Darwin, and some of those changes were taken and integrated into the official BSD kernel. Anyway, MS used some BSD code in early versions of Windows.) EDIT: Fixed some sentences and whatnot, tired today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John the Geek Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Even though what you said is true there's a big difference in this and the Apple/Psystar debate. Windows Vista is NOT supported on the PPC architecture PS3 Games are NOT supported on the Wii Console OS X IS supported on the x86 architecture, but apple is only limiting the hardware to what THEY sell. You are choosing your distinctions incorrectly. They don't compare at all. It's more accurate to say that PS3 OS is not supported on the Wii hardware, and OS X is not supported on generic PC hardware by license only. However, the PS3 OS is PowerPC-based and could run on an XBox console which is also PowerPC-based, just as Apple's OS can run on similar PC hardware because both are x86-based. If you could configure an XBox or a Wii or a PS3 hardware yourself you might be able to make them exact even. Just because you choose to draw the line favorably for Psystar doesn't give them a shot in hell at winning this thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stravaganza Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 No one can dictate me what to do with what I paid for. I am with Psystar on this one even though they are in this for money just like Apple. Hooha! Money is good, money is wise, blah, blah, blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uray Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Apple should understand this while they are moving to intel, it means they are moving to PC world, what's the difference between Mac and local PC now? there's nothing except Mac is more expensive (that's why I don't like Mac fans) and it has apple logo on it, and even worse its performance wise bad and very slow to evolve, ok its beautiful... but ugly inside. if they don't want to change their EULA of OS X, just go back to their crappy hardware and processor. I love OS X but I hate Mac, i would buy OS X only if I could upgrade my hardware freely, upgrade it anytime with anything i want with reasonable price. after moving to intel mac users incresing from 2.5% to 4.3% in three years, eating Linux desktop share (1% today ). I predict after OS X using open hardware it could be 15% or even better eating a lot of windows market share, it would give more competition on O/S world, and customer will have a lot of benefit from that (just forget about linux, their O/Ses are {censored}) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apowerr Posted August 27, 2008 Author Share Posted August 27, 2008 Apple should understand this while they are moving to intel, it means they are moving to PC world, what's the difference between Mac and local PC now? there's nothing except Mac is more expensive (that's why I don't like Mac fans) and it has apple logo on it, and even worse its performance wise bad and very slow to evolve, ok its beautiful... but ugly inside. if they don't want to change their EULA of OS X, just go back to their crappy hardware and processor. I love OS X but I hate Mac, i would buy OS X only if I could upgrade my hardware freely, upgrade it anytime with anything i want with reasonable price. QFE. Completely agree with you here bud. Like others have said, OS 10 is runs absolutely fine on normal PCs. While I don't think Apple should develop and sell OS X for the PC as it would be financial suicide for their company, their EULA needs to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candykane Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Well can any one specifi what makes a apple computer an Apple? If i swap my drives ram cpu hell for that matter my case is it still an apple computer? Or if i build my hackintosh in to a G3 blue and white tower would it be an apple computer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSXtotheZ Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I'm curious, just to get the pulse around here. Hypothetically what if Apple and Intel got together and were able to hardwire something that made intel chips only work on Apple mobo. Meaning the only way you could get it in a generic pc would be to pull the mobo and chip from a real mac. How many of you would continue to use OSX and bite the bullet and buy a real mac (those of you that don't have a real one) how many would just go back to windows. Is the OS compelling enough for anyone to make it a must have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofors Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Pretty big news for OSx86 perhaps as an outcome of this we will be fully 'legal' and not in violation of Apple's restrictive EULA. Psystar legal arguments look extremely weak. Instead of this nonsense about Apple being a "monopoly", they should focus on the "first sale" doctrine, which essentially means that when you buy OS X there is no contract in place, and hence the EULA is a meaningless. Rudy Pedraza is right on the money when he claims that people are open towards using OS 10, but don't want to pay Apple's ridiculous price premiums on normal (and often out of date) hardware. You are misconstruing the issue. Apple prices for Macintosh hardware are quite reasonably and in some cases below Dell, despite being of much higher quality and design. No, the real issue is that people what more choices for OS X desktop machines than just Mac Mini, iMac and Mac Pro. Moreover, they want to run OS X on the PC's they already own instead of having to buy a real Mac. Mac OS 10 Given the extreme n00b factor, I am not at all sure that describing "OS X" as "OS 10" is good idea. Furthemore, as we have removed the "Mac" requirement from OS X, maybe we should just call OS X... um... "OS X" (I know I'm crazy... ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft_Punk Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Well, I personally cannot believe that Psystar is anti-sueing. In other news, I got a USB Floppy drive today! (Only because Windows XP doesn't have SATA drivers built-in and I can't slipstream for {censored}) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konami® Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 If Psystar wins, won't that legitimize what this community is doing? I think I'm overlooking something. That's a good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cavallo Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Source (CNET) Pretty big news for OSx86 perhaps as an outcome of this we will be fully 'legal' and not in violation of Apple's restrictive EULA. Rudy Pedraza is right on the money when he claims that people are open towards using OS 10, but don't want to pay Apple's ridiculous price premiums on normal (and often out of date) hardware. Personally I'm going to have to side with Psystar on this one as I feel that Apple's current EULA for Mac OS 10 is absurd: You pay $125 for software, and then can only install it on certain machines? How do you guys think? There is a great difference to do a competion with yours against mine and to do a competition with mine modified against mine overpriced that's a great difference, sir don't sleep please. Sir remember that Psytar tried to sell us pre installed osx for 25 dollars more, what do you think about, is that correct? You don't like to pay to Apple this price but you like that Psystars sells the same 25 dollars more, good very good!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John the Geek Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 I have a great idea. I'm going to make my own ATM with a card reader that reads your bank cards and their pin numbers, We'll call it a "efiPIN. Then I'm going to use it to access an "unmodified" ATM and access your bank account because it's really the exact same bank account that I have, only with more money, and therefor compatible with my bank account. So I feel I should be able to just access your account and I don't feel there's any legal problem with it, since the ATM hasn't been modified in any way, just tricked. And while trickery is against the current laws, I disagree with the current laws so I circumvent them anyway and BS myself into believing I'll win in court. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticus C* Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 The POWER architecture wasn't just used by Apple, it's developed in part by IBM. It is Microsoft's fault for not compiling for PPC. Windows can run on PPC and it does run... Only problem is Apple releasing drivers? and consent so that Windows can be used on it... It used to be much more closed, now opening up, and now it can run natively as well... But apple doesnt have ppc anymore all intel based... Making something (compiling in your terms) work does make sense if it will ever make it to those hardware that will be allowed... Psystar wants Apple to support regular PC out of the box. Using their argument, the electronics maker should support my UK socket out of the box. The converter you mention is the same as the JaS/Kalyway/iATKOS DVDs you use. They convert OS X to make it compatible with regular PCs. I am not sure what you say here, as I dont get "apple to support regular pc out of box" part... Because mainly, drivers are OEM's problem to be provided, and if they are allowed into one platform, they usually start building drivers... Apple has software and hardware devisions... They are selling Software, so to certain extend, they have to support it, too!!! And your comment is absurd again regarding sockets and dvds... It is a Government Policy to decide and regulate electricks and electronics... Converter/inverter is not same as dvd example... For example, in usa, 110v being used in usa-socket, in uk 220v used in uk-socket... if your device is designed for 110v converter wont be enough... you will need additional stuffs and other may-be-not-possible modifications... like TV signals and etc... Apple's policy is not just socket, it also puts another stuff inside to prevent it from running somewhere/ or /to be converted... You can buy a converter but you still cant run it, where as patching dvd is done by removing that blockage... Let's imagine OS X is Apple's engine, for Apple cars. You are complaining that Apple's engine isn't working quite right in your {brand here} chasis. It is not the Apple's engine (hardware) in question, it is the juice it burns... Thats what I ment... That was your comment I compared... Computer is a general purpose machine, where as game consoles are specific, entertainment! Well, seeing as it is Apple's, they can charge out the ass if they really want to. I decide to sell lemonade for £50. All I've done is taken things that were there already and put it in a nice glass. I am charging insanely, yes, but that's what I choose to charge. No-one can make me change that. No doubt about that... That is the debate in question... (Apple has made good modifications to the BSD kernel in the form of Darwin, and some of those changes were taken and integrated into the official BSD kernel. Anyway, MS used some BSD code in early versions of Windows.) So what is the point here? Because Apple had made modifications, OS X should be limited to APPLE-ONLY hardware? It is a computer software, and can be installed easily if the preventions/blockage by apple is removed... The question here is anti-compatitiveness... Ask yourself this question. If, tomorrow, Microsoft decided to make its own PC version, and made a statement, that from now on all future Windows will be installed only on MS PC... Apple is in PC business, for a long time, until intel-macs, how often your options doubled if not quadruppled in a year? Since when Apple started making some good money in its PC-Business, after intel switch? and Generally available hardware... Most of you here probably hate MS, but Thanx to MS that today, there are many hardware manufacturers and variaties of options available... If it was up-to apple from the beginning, you would be seeing updates every 5-10 years... And options? what options? Apple say A/B hardware options that is it... Price?, Apple says $5000, thats it... Apple says so... Apple is no different than MS if not worse! But MS is slightly better in terms of Technology pushing-forward, and availabiliy of hardware options to end users, not staying in the same point for 3-5 years... There are amd, intel, via cpus work fine. PPC is usually not designed for general purpose, therefor didnt make it to desktop computing, apart from apple's control-freak strategy... which apple figured the mistake as well... There are many types of graphics processors with many configurations... How many of them are available to an Apple MAC PC? and which ranges? Mid-to-low? How are they priced? dont even ask... =========================================== ACER Laptop: $1650 OS 'Windows Vista Ultimate' CPU Type 'Intel Core 2 Duo T9300 2.5G' Screen '18.4" WUXGA' Memory Size '4GB DDR2' Hard Disk '320GB' Optical Drive 'Blu-ray Disc / Super Multi' Graphics Card 'NVIDIA GeForce 9500M GS 512 MB' =========================================== ASUS Laptop: $1500 OS 'Windows Vista Home' CPU Type 'Intel Core 2 Duo T9300 2.53G Screen '17" WUXGA' Memory Size '4GB DDR2' Hard Disk '320GB' Optical Drive 'DVD Super Multi Graphics Card 'NVIDIA GeForce 9500M GS 512MB' =========================================== Apple MacbookPro: $3174 OS 'Windows Vista Ultimate'OSX Leopard CPU Type '2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo' Screen '17" WUXGA' Memory Size '4GB DDR2' Hard Disk '300GB' Optical Drive 'Double-layer SuperDrive' Graphics Card 'NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 512MB' =========================================== People who argue that mac pcs are same if not cheaper than windows pc... These are taken from Newegg.com today... There you go your lemonade! I suppose you have an expensive taste for something that can be done much much affordable... I doubt that majority of people think the same though... What is difference between these three PCs? apart from design? Aluminum case: cost ~ $1400 + $129 OS X? Oh dont forget, OSX you buy cannot be officially installed on another PC you have... Although you can buy it seperately... On the other hand, get the windows disc if seperate, or find one online oem version and use your 100% legit key, and install it on MAC pc... wow... MAC PC can run WINDOWS, well you are paying $1500-1600 more for the same if not for lower specs... I would expect that it should cook breakfast lunch and dinner for me too... Oh i saw a Windows PC for sale the other day, which has a built-in toaster at a very very affordable price, can MAC toast affordably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
np_ Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 wonder who will sue Psystar for making money from netkas and others work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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