South Ossetia

[Numberzz]

1. Increasing the size and spendings of a military has nothing to do with starting a war with Russia.

2. Do you have any proof Georgia spends 70% of its funds on a army of less than 40,000 troups

3. Russia has one of the biggest militaries in the world and is one of the biggest spenders and suppliers of military weapons.

 

@iTiger: Thanks for the pictures!

[Descalzo]

I from Russia/Osetia/Vladikavkaz...

I watch BBC World. I read The Times. I speak with journalists from S. Osetia. I speak with the refugees from S. Osetia.

The truth only in the West? :-)

 

PS. The budget of the Georgian army $1 billion. What for?

Uh, for the army. I don't understand your point: It's likely that Russian and Georgia both saw a confrontation happening. Any government that sees an upcoming military conflict and doesn't plan accordingly is being immoral.

 

 

 

Tiger, as was mentioned above, I also would like the pictures labeled. They aren't much good to me otherwise. I don't speak Russian, or whatever language they speak in Georgia and South Ossetia (I assume Russian?), so it's tough to know what's going on.

 

That teddy bear looks pretty clean to me. It's a backpack someone has hung on the iron window grating. Why are we shown this picture?

Why is there English writing on that rocket launcher? What is that, a LAW?

 

 

 

@iTiger: Thanks for the pictures!

What's your point? Everyone knows the USA has by far the biggest military budget. Also, your graph shows Russia in what appears to be 3rd place, right behind China.

 

So why show us the graph?

[m16]

Georgia has its own language. This is one of the things I find puzzling. Putin would prefer to control all the defecting soviet countries. I think its stupid because many have different languages... The USSR had 15 official languages in the different republics.

 

 

@iTiger: Thanks for the pictures!

Thats how much countries spend. Russia used to be the biggest producer of weapons a few years ago. Maybe they have surpassed the US again. Either way they are neck and neck for the number one spot.

 

Look at your chart... Russia is number 3 on there! That just proves my point how serious Russia is about its military. Russia would probably be way higher if it had to pay its soldiers as much as the US pays its.

[Paranoid Marvin]

I love the persistent xenophobia in the USA that still continues long after the cold war

[fatshitcat]

I love the persistent xenophobia in the USA that still continues long after the cold war

 

Georgia is doing all that {censored} just to get NATO membership IMHO. You know.... the enemy's enemy is our friend, isn't it?

 

How interesting.... at the latest NATO conference here in Romania, Georgia was not given a plan to join NATO. Now, on the other hand German chancellor Angela Merkel states Georgia will be a NATO member if it wants to.

[Paranoid Marvin]

 

Georgia is doing all that {censored} just to get NATO membership IMHO. You know.... the enemy's enemy is our friend, isn't it?

 

How interesting.... at the latest NATO conference here in Romania, Georgia was not given a plan to join NATO. Now, on the other hand German chancellor Angela Merkel states Georgia will be a NATO member if it wants to.

 

It's so stupid - all this hatred towards Russia (China too, I guess). Russia hasn't done anything wrong, yet because the US doesn't like them, Europe isn't allowed to like them.

 

If it comes to a third world war, I know what country I'd be supporting

[Numberzz]

It's so stupid - all this hatred towards Russia (China too, I guess). Russia hasn't done anything wrong, yet because the US doesn't like them, Europe isn't allowed to like them.

 

If it comes to a third world war, I know what country I'd be supporting

*gasp* Not the Godless Commies!

(Joking)

 

If there was a 3rd World War, I would move to Canada. No one gives a damn about Canada.

[m16]

I love the persistent xenophobia in the USA that still continues long after the cold war

I am not scared of individuals from any particular country. I am scared of countries that are becoming increasingly nationalistic like Russia and China. I am especially scared of blind patriotism... This is a problem in the US as well but at least we have press freedom here to counterbalance this problem. In Russia and China their is no press freedom.

 

 

Georgia is doing all that {censored} just to get NATO membership IMHO. You know.... the enemy's enemy is our friend, isn't it?

 

How interesting.... at the latest NATO conference here in Romania, Georgia was not given a plan to join NATO. Now, on the other hand German chancellor Angela Merkel states Georgia will be a NATO member if it wants to.

I think Georgias doing this because its president said he would retake those territories and if he doesn't he may look weak.

 

I think NATO is waiting for the situation in Georgia to cool down before allowing them as a member. After all Georgia is occupied...

 

Also here is some news you probably don't hear in Russia:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080816/ap_on_...ia_forced_labor

 

Now the Russians are using forced labor to clean up the mess they made

 

Also Russia keeps lying about the pullout:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1219060224...p_us_whats_news

 

It's so stupid - all this hatred towards Russia (China too, I guess). Russia hasn't done anything wrong, yet because the US doesn't like them, Europe isn't allowed to like them.

If it comes to a third world war, I know what country I'd be supporting

Russia and China have no press freedom for its citizens.

 

Russia and China are the countries holding the UN security council from doing anything in emergency situations like Darfur. The European Union is strong enough to operate without the United States. They don't like Russia because Russia opposed EU membership to former soviet states and vice versa.

[m16]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/18/europe/18tblisi.php

 

Looks like Russia isn't allowing western media to take a look at south ossetia. This just proves that their is no press freedom in Russia. Russia is trying to cover up its campaign of driving ethnic georgians out of south ossetia. Or possibly cover up there is no genocide .

 

40 peoples deaths do not count as a genocide: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wo...0,7645959.story

 

The most shocking thing is ethnic attacks against georgians are continuing. Russia says its invading to stop "genocide" - then it allows ethnic cleansing to happen. Go russia!

 

 

Also: Russia still not withdrawing - instead it is advancing by having tanks drive over police blockades:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/world/eu...wanted=2&em

[Paranoid Marvin]

I guess it depends on who you believe more...

 

A leader of a country that has been portrayed as pure evil with little cause for the last 50 years or a man that eats his tie

[m16]

No, It boils down to western independent media or state run russian propaganda news.

[Paranoid Marvin]

No, It boils down to western independent media or state run russian propaganda news.

 

Not even the word of someone that actually lives there?

[m16]

That would be picked up in independent media.

[fatshitcat]

I am scared of countries that are becoming increasingly nationalistic like Russia and China. I am especially scared of blind patriotism...

 

Then never go to the US, my friend. Russians today have everything but patriotism. America on the other hand... well that's a whole different story.

 

And I am extremely disillusioned about the "independent media".

The video of the 12-year old Georgian girl is a good example. Even if she didn't say the truth, she was cut off when started to thank the Russian forces.

And when everyone was going wild when the Iranians started testing some(not really advanced) nuclear bombs, why no one looked at Israel? Believe me they have a lot more nukes.

[m16]

Then never go to the US, my friend. Russians today have everything but patriotism. America on the other hand... well that's a whole different story.

 

And I am extremely disillusioned about the "independent media".

The video of the 12-year old Georgian girl is a good example. Even if she didn't say the truth, she was cut off when started to thank the Russian forces.

And when everyone was going wild when the Iranians started testing some(not really advanced) nuclear bombs, why no one looked at Israel? Believe me they have a lot more nukes.

I live in the US, there are a lot of idiots who are overpatriotic. I am not one of them. However it seems to me Russia invaded Georgia to restore a bit of pride and honor to Russia... finally getting back at the west after lots of misery. Thats no reason for an invasion. I think Russia and China are nationalistic... You can tell by the overwhelming support putin has.

 

Also that video of the american girl staying in south ossetia was made by FOX NEWS. You probably don't know this since you are in Romania but Fox news ammounts to little more the pro republican propoganda. They are not a good example of a news source. You can see their many failing at mediamatters.org or perhaps fauxnews.com or maybe .org... i don't remember. ABC news and Fox news are very conservative and are mocked a lot. The daily show and the colbert report are 2 popular comedy shows that consist of a lot of mockeries about fox news style news converage...

 

There is a fair ammount of criticism of Israel in the United States... IT just isn't done much by politicians because they want the Jewish vote... The United States has a very bad presidential election system that makes special intrest groups of people more powerful then they are ie Jews and Cubans... Presidents in the US have kept the embargo on CUba for many years because if they lift it a huge percent of electoral college votes will be lost for their party (the state of florida is very closely contested and many cubans live their so if cubans switch political partiess the state could switch partiess...)

[u1m2]

Its not the United States fault that Russia decided to become a depressive police state and couldn't keep up with capitalisms technology. Capitalism is the only fair economic system that rewards risk. All of Russias suffering is brought onto themselves.

 

 

What a load of , my guess is a typical example of run of the mill anglo-saxon college graduate. Poor pathetic minds filled with poor pathetic ideas.

[Paranoid Marvin]

Its not the United States fault that Russia decided to become a depressive police state and couldn't keep up with capitalisms technology. Capitalism is the only fair economic system that rewards risk. All of Russias suffering is brought onto themselves.

 

Thank you for proving exactly what I said.

 

Free media? Perhaps.

Government brainwashing? You're no better than Russia.

[u1m2]

Just to clarify another thing : socialist governments have usually been quite successful towards achieving their goals, the problem lies in the fact that their goals have never really been what they claimed publicly. For USSR, to have military strength and a better image than US was more important than the welfare of it's people. The same can successfully be argued against US imho. Otherwise they wouldn't have invaded iraq at the expense of it's people's tax dollars and more importantly the lives of the sons/daughters of the middle and lower class citizens. I don't think any son/daughter of the owners of the defence corporations benefiting from the war were harmed because of the invasion. In fact their birthday gifts just got upgraded from the V8 to the V12.

[sxjthefirst]

Just to clarify another thing : socialist governments have usually been quite successful towards achieving their goals, the problem lies in the fact that their goals have never really been what they claimed publicly. For USSR, to have military strength and a better image than US was more important than the welfare of it's people.

By corollary USA had more interest in welfare of it's people than the USSR.

 

The same can successfully be argued against US imho. Otherwise they wouldn't have invaded iraq at the expense of it's people's tax dollars and more importantly the lives of the sons/daughters of the middle and lower class citizens. I don't think any son/daughter of the owners of the defence corporations benefiting from the war were harmed because of the invasion. In fact their birthday gifts just got upgraded from the V8 to the V12.

I didn't hear of any Putin's family members fighting either.

[m16]

What a load of , my guess is a typical example of run of the mill anglo-saxon college graduate. Poor pathetic minds filled with poor pathetic ideas.

That's downright racist so I will not comment.

Free media? Perhaps.

Government brainwashing? You're no better than Russia.

Could you please tell me how my government is brainwashing me?

 

What other fair economic system is their after capitalism?

 

Just to clarify another thing : socialist governments have usually been quite successful towards achieving their goals, the problem lies in the fact that their goals have never really been what they claimed publicly. For USSR, to have military strength and a better image than US was more important than the welfare of it's people. The same can successfully be argued against US imho. Otherwise they wouldn't have invaded iraq at the expense of it's people's tax dollars and more importantly the lives of the sons/daughters of the middle and lower class citizens. I don't think any son/daughter of the owners of the defence corporations benefiting from the war were harmed because of the invasion. In fact their birthday gifts just got upgraded from the V8 to the V12.

Vladimir Lenin's dream was to have a dominant military?

 

Even if socialism allows for some goals to be fulfilled the underlying problems of having to take away civilians rights in order to accomplish this remains. And history shows it only takes one crazy person to take advantage of his power at the top to make life terrible for millions.. Hitler, Stalin ect...

 

I didn't hear of any Putin's family members fighting either.

Exactly... Russia is just as bad as the US when it comes to hoping for wars that mean weapon sales....

[Paranoid Marvin]

Could you please tell me how my government is brainwashing me?

 

I'm referring to the residual Cold War ideals, ie, America is good, Russia is evil.

 

Completely wrong, but believed by too many people, including yourself, it seems.

[u1m2]

First of all where the hell did my last message go ? what the hell is going on ? Can somebody PM me my last post showing what has been found so offensive that it had to be removed. It's been a while but I'm pretty sure I posted something as a reply a few hours ago. It's either that or I had a little bit too much rakı to drink tonight.

 

That's downright racist so I will not comment.

 

Anglo-Saxon system is what I refer to as the current college system that is used in countries like US and GBR. By system I mean the way a university is organized such as having a dean etc. and the curriculum being based on western methodology of teaching and western thought in general. I haven't intended it as you perceived it. It is meant to generalize colleges like harvard, oxford, stanford etc...

 

What other fair economic system is their after capitalism?

for this question to be valid, a single person must at least accept that capitalism is fair. you haven't -you won't be able to- give a single reason why capitalism is fair because by nature it's not. Why is it called "capitalism" because the system depends on "capital" and there are people who have it and there are people who don't. Those who have it ultimately have an "unfair" advantage over those who don't because everything in this system is based on how much money you have. Money determines whether you will be educated properly, whether your health will be taken care of properly and whether daddy can pull strings to get you a high paying job as a redundant carpet holder.

 

Vladimir Lenin's dream was to have a dominant military?

 

Was it George Washington's or Abraham Lincoln's ? You obviously haven't understood a word I said. I will try to explain in simpler historical facts. USSR and USA post WW2 became more interested in a competition with each other over who was more successful yet for both sides the winning criteria wasn't who made their people happier. It was about how powerful of an image each country posed to the rest of the world. Both sides kept producing more nuclear weapons despite the fact that they could already wipe out the world clean a couple times and more. It was a game of numbers, military exercises causing erections on patriotic {censored} and neither government had valid reasons to spend all that money on weapons considering a war in the era of the mushroom cloud ultimately meant total destruction on both sides. Wake up, take a dump, wash your face and smell the import Colombian coffee and see who ultimately benefited from the cold war. Unsuccessful, pathetic governments on both sides relying on the blinding paranoia to see all their wrong doings go unnoticed because people who criticized were easily tagged as commies, fascists so anyone with the balls to oppose false policies could be eliminated and such actions could easily be justified to the terrified masses because fear makes people turn a blind eye. (This is what is happening in your country now if you haven't noticed) Intelligence agencies, military etc. received huge amounts of funds which would otherwise be considered excessive expenditures in peace times.

The list goes on and on. USSR was not even a half-assed implementation of a socialist regime yet they claimed they were defending and upholding socialist ideals. Just like all the governments of the USA , USSR leaders only cared about holding power among a select few and making sure masses did what they were told to do. Failure of the USSR was just that, failure of the USSR. It can not be interpreted as the failure of the socialist ideals and it takes nothing from the greatness of them in my opinion.

 

Even if socialism allows for some goals to be fulfilled the underlying problems of having to take away civilians rights in order to accomplish this remains. And history shows it only takes one crazy person to take advantage of his power at the top to make life terrible for millions.. Hitler, Stalin ect...

Exactly... Russia is just as bad as the US when it comes to hoping for wars that mean weapon sales....

There are two methods to control the masses.

1- By force which usually means civilian rights being violated

2- By brainwashing propaganda

 

No 1 was used by US against anything it regarded as a threat to the status quo. Afro-american civil rights movement, socialists/communists, members of the anti-war movement during the 60s and 70s. You might recall shooting of college students, bashing of heads. Do you think police brutality in the US consists of isolated events. Can't you see a pattern throughout recent history? Patriot act is nothing but a cowardly way of establishing fascistic power over anyone who might be regarded as a threat to national security. Don't you care for the civilian rights of the many people that I mentioned above or anyone who has been stripped of their dignity as a direct result of the patriot act? You think you are free and the Russians are not ?

No 2 is being used in everyday regular TV, horse{censored} shows like 24, dumbass movies like "on native soil" and whatnot, newspapers etc... From the moment you were born, you are subjected to the ideals of the society you live in, what it means to be a good citizen, how one should be a patriot is being fed to you by the system in any method it can. This is called social engineering and is a method widely used on masses.

 

Believe me, if threatened, your "beloved capitalist wonderland" will use an abundant amount force to take away more civilian rights before you can shout democracy. You are already under surveillance thanks to the patriot act and I don't think things are looking bright for the average joe in US of A as far as civil rights are concerned. Every system has self-preserving methods built into them, the question is where you draw the line between preserving the system and upholding ideals of basic human rights.

 

 

edit : apologize if I diverted the subject with my last posts, I would gladly stop so the topic gets back on track : South Ossetia

[m16]

In most western countries there is not purely unregulated capitalism. Unregulated capitalism stopped in the US long before the cold war in the United States. Money does not determine whether you are educated in Germany and it doesn't in the United States until college. If you are very poor and smart you will most likely get a scholarship in the US because capitalism wants the most intelligent people educated as it helps industry. The US even gives out grants and low interest loans to students. There is no reason in the US why a dedicated person should not be able to get at least an associates degree.

 

In capitalism everyone has a shot to make a good living.. in socialism society is plagued by laziness, corruption and greed.

 

I have dual citizenship with 2 countries - the United States and Germany. Believe me the United States is not the west. The United States is not exactly the most popular country right now. Since George Bush became president many things have become worse in this country.

 

You seem to think that just because I am pro-west that I am pro patriot act. I am outraged at the things that the Bush administration has done in its 7+ years of power. Guantanamo bay, patriot act, protect america act, Iraq ect... Many of us United States citizens, including myself are outraged by these things and hope the next president will put an end to them. However in the US you can protest these things and you can write about them. In Russia the Kremlin might lock you up for a while.

[u1m2]

In most western countries there is not purely unregulated capitalism. Unregulated capitalism stopped in the US long before the cold war in the United States. Money does not determine whether you are educated in Germany and it doesn't in the United States until college. If you are very poor and smart you will most likely get a scholarship in the US because capitalism wants the most intelligent people educated as it helps industry. The US even gives out grants and low interest loans to students. There is no reason in the US why a dedicated person should not be able to get at least an associates degree.

 

What has changed with "regulated" capitalism ?

 

quoting wikipedia

"In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth, and the top 1% controlled 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth."

 

Apparently nothing. About schools, I never claimed that in USA one can't go to a school and be educated. But I would presume it's common knowledge by now that private schools and/or schools that are in wealthier districts have better teachers, better equipment, libraries, lower student/teacher ratio so if you have money and can go to private school or the school in your rich predominantly white suburban neighborhood which is better than the ones in the slums of the city, you get a better education thus you have been given an "unfair" advantage over many other people who might be smarter yet without proper education will never be able to shine in maths or other subjects. People who have money can have private tutors, access to computers with internet connection, heck, even living in a better environment like having your own room or not worrying about your next meal does affect your academic success. Academic success which determines the kind of colleges one can be accepted to, so there is no way in freaking hell that I can agree with your conclusion, the issue is about fairness, not about remote possibilities of someone being able to do something if they are "dedicated" enough. People shouldn't have to work harder just because they are underprivileged, all schools should be public and one should only be able to go to a certain school only if one can prove that they deserve to be there not because their parents can afford an expensive house in a good school district. I think this benefits everybody since smarter people will prevail to have the crucial jobs, meaning better doctors, better detectives, better scientists, better engineers and last but not least better politicians I know a little bit about the education in Germany and I totally agree with you there, two of my cousins grew up in Munich and went to university there and it's one of the best systems I have ever seen and in terms of fairness, it is the best I have seen so far.

 

In capitalism everyone has a shot to make a good living.. in socialism society is plagued by laziness, corruption and greed.

as I said before it's not about possibilities, it's about the odds which are tilting in favor of the wealthy more and more...

 

You seem to think that just because I am pro-west that I am pro patriot act. I am outraged at the things that the Bush administration has done in its 7+ years of power. Guantanamo bay, patriot act, protect america act, Iraq ect... Many of us United States citizens, including myself are outraged by these things and hope the next president will put an end to them. However in the US you can protest these things and you can write about them. In Russia the Kremlin might lock you up for a while.

 

I am quite sure you are outraged by the patriot act and you should be. I am not an american citizen and I am bloody pissed myself. The hypocrisy of the thing alone makes me sick. Attacking a sovereign nation, killing civilians with claims of bringing democracy and completely violating these ideals against american people. It's truly unjustifiable and I hope Bush will be put on trial and be convicted for this. Anyway, you can protest all you want but as long as the act is there to stay, the will of the people goes unheard which is not much different than in Russia or any other police state around the world.

[m16]

I'm sure Russia has a similar distribution of wealth if not worse since most of the country is poor.

 

I strongly disagree that all schools should be private. If everything is government run then it is much easier for children to be brainwashed or taught science how oil companies want it taught ect...

 

Private high schools in the United States typically have WORSE teachers then public schools. This is because private schools do not have the resources to pay teachers the same amount of money as public school teachers and the government gives teachers a very good pension, which private schools cannot match. What they do offer is an environment where every child wants to be there (or has parents who pressure them to do well). Often times private high schools enforce discipline more than public schools. That is generally what parents pay for. Additionally private schools are allowed to be male or female only.

 

While a student may be slightly disadvantaged by coming from a poorer school district and not having the latest technologies to benefit from - the standardized tests high schoolers take at the end of high school are done with pen and paper and at most a graphing calculator. And all the problems can be done without a graphing calculator. A student from a disadvantaged area will have the advantage when he applies for a college over someone from a richer area with otherwise identical qualifications because universities view that as a character trait and they want to diversify.

 

Now I would much prefer a public school system like Germanies... but things in the United States are not as bad as you make it seem. Students do have a relatively good chance to "make it" in the real world. And in the US religion is strictly banned from schools. In Germany I was in a public school that had crucifixes in every room.