South Ossetia

[(MoC)]

Two words. Holy {censored}.

 

If the US goes to Georgia then we're screwed, watch Russia put up missiles in Cuba and a few other places, I mean, it's not like this isn't a bad situation. Watch this be a second Iraq.

[MrMookMook]

Hi All

 

I will try to explain to you (from the best of my knowledge) in an easy to understand way why Russia is invading Georgia. Georgia have become allies with the US as many of you know. Russia do not like this at all. They have some sort of illusion that everyone around them should follow them as the leader and not join in with Western Society such as the US. So with the invasion they are showing everyone that if they do not follow their lead consequences will happen and they will regret it. They also have another motive. They want to show all countries around the World that the big US is not going to help them in their time of need. They are sort of daring the US to do something. Its a Win-Win. If the US does something they get the war they wanted so they can take over the world and if the US does nothing it makes the US look weak and Russia look strong.

 

Hope this helps

Mr Mook Mook

[killbot1000]

We have over 800 military bases world wide. We spend more on our military and "defense" than the rest of the world combined. We have so many pacts, treaties, and "understandings" that there really isn't much of anything that can happen in the world without the United States feeling obliged to step in.

 

I understand the impulse to save the world... I'm as cowboy as the next red blooded American and I want us to ride in on our white horse and vanquish the bad guy... my heart aches when I see the suffering in the world... BUT WTF?!!!!! It's not like we have the Midas Touch! Quite the contrary! Recently, everything we seem to get involved in freaking blows up in our face. Why? BECAUSE LIKE IT OR NOT, WE ARE FREAKING CULTURAL XENOPHOBES WHO OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW JACK! We demand that everyone everywhere think like we do... value what we value... want what we want. I love the American way of life.... I want the world to unite under the banner of liberty and brotherhood... but it isn't going to happen at the end of an American missile!

 

Some may think Thomas Jefferson a relic from a bygone era... a naive idealist. In truth, he wasn't perfect but he was a man of principle. Principle is what sets the statesman apart from the mere politician. The world is full of politicians doing the bidding of greedy, arrogant, hypocrites. The world is awash with good intention but it's drowned out by political expedience. Militarism can not save the world. It can only serve as a temporary stop gap measure. Only true statesmanship can exact lasting change. Yet, where is the investment? Our diplomatic corps is a complete laughingstock!

 

Truth is, BOTH sides have valid concerns. Neither side is exactly lilly pure either... nor are we. This crisis has been in the making for decades and encompasses a boat load of issues. There is enough fault to engulf East and West. This garbage of "news as entertainment" we are all choking on these days prevents all but the most careful researcher from understanding what is truly going on. Hell, I can't understand it fully but what I have figured out reeks to high heaven. American national interest has taken priority over truth and justice for a very long time. Intelligent debate is all but dead in this country. And before any of you conspiracy theorists chime in with your ignorant slop, Washington certainly does NOT want war but I have to agree their myopic interests in the region aren't helping alleviate that threat. Unless they vote, ally against our "enemies," or provide us with the goods and services we desire, my government doesn't really give a rats ass about anyone's pursuit of life, liberty, happiness, or democracy. In short, WE ARE THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK. We have been every bit as dishonest and manipulative as any other participant. Geopolitics is ugly and Washington plays to win. Too bad their game plan is totally !

 

Good Post!

[Paranoid Marvin]

You are obviously the type of fool who watches BBC propaganda, eats it raw and then makes an a$ out of himself insisting it is unbiased information.

 

lol, ok, if you say so

[fatshitcat]

lol, ok, if you say so

 

Georgia started it. And IMHO Russia did the right thing for now. Imagine what would a half of Asia and a quarter of Europe would become if Russia just stood back and tolerated everything.

 

Oh, and USA should just off. I'm not against US people, I'm against the US foreign policy since Woodrow Wilson.

[Paranoid Marvin]

 

Georgia started it. And IMHO Russia did the right thing for now. Imagine what would a half of Asia and a quarter of Europe would become if Russia just stood back and tolerated everything.

 

Oh, and USA should just off. I'm not against US people, I'm against the US foreign policy since Woodrow Wilson.

 

Exactly, I think Russia has been well within it's boundaries - someone needs to tell the Georgian President to take a jog

[m16]

Georgia started it?

 

Georgia was attacked by secessionists... Russia was just itching to get into the fight.

 

 

Russia has been war mongering all year long... doing jet flybys over Georgia probably preparing for the attack by adding more troops in breakaway regions. Lifting economic sanctions on Abkhazia... Believe me Georgia did not start this..

 

 

Georgia did not start fighting with Russia. This was a civil war. Russia is a terrible country in which citizens do not have press freedom and political opponents of the ruling party are jailed and harassed. Russia is a terrible country to have as world police. Russia is hardly a democracy.

 

 

The 12 year old girl video is PATHETIC. She only knows her little area in South Ossetia not the outskirts where the initial fighting broke out. Leave it to fox news to exploit something like this...

[MrMookMook]

Georgia started it?

 

Georgia was attacked by secessionists... Russia was just itching to get into the fight.

Russia has been war mongering all year long... doing jet flybys over Georgia probably preparing for the attack by adding more troops in breakaway regions. Lifting economic sanctions on Abkhazia... Believe me Georgia did not start this..

Georgia did not start fighting with Russia. This was a civil war. Russia is a terrible country in which citizens do not have press freedom and political opponents of the ruling party are jailed and harassed. Russia is a terrible country to have as world police. Russia is hardly a democracy.

The 12 year old girl video is PATHETIC. She only knows her little area in South Ossetia not the outskirts where the initial fighting broke out. Leave it to fox news to exploit something like this...

 

+1. You hit the nail on the head!

[fatshitcat]

Georgia did not start fighting with Russia.

 

Noooo. I guess Georgia was spending 70% of its funds on military because the president had a hobby of driving tanks.

[iTiger]

South Ossetia is really a de-facto independent country since 1989. They already had one war with Georgia in early 90-s (without Russia intervening) and proved that their independence will not be taken from them.

 

Although officially and de-jure they are a part of Georgia (according to old soviet maps), de-facto they are another country.

 

90% of the population is Ossetian and not Georgian. More than a half of them have Russian citizenship.

 

Georgia (a country with the most powerful military after Russia in the region -- invaded South Ossetia and started conducting genocide on its own citizens (!) for several hours as well as killing 12 Russian peace-keepers in the process BEFORE Russia intervened. 1 400 civilians were killed by the Georgian forces BEFORE Russian army entered Georgia. And at least 600 after.

 

Then there was fighting for several days, and it seems that now (after Russia defended the South Ossetian people) the war is over. Russia withdrew its troops from Georgia proper yesterday and now its workers and peace-keepers are re-building South Ossetia.

 

The Western media (specially CNN and BBC) have never mentioned that it was Georgia who attacked first and literally leveled South Ossetia to the ground.

 

They haven't said that Russian troops have the international jurisdiction to be in South Ossetia as peace-keepers. And what they did (namely, stopped the genocide of Ossetians) WAS what they should have done according to international laws, regulations and jurisdictions.

 

Why does the West cheer on when Kosovo separated from Serbia but condemns South Ossetia and Abkhazia when they try to do the same to avoid being EXTERMINATED as a people?

 

Why does the West cheer when Bush attacks Iraq to plunder its resources and shows fake indignation when Russia intervenes into DE-FACTO independent South Ossetia for humanitarian purposes?

 

I tell you why -- double standards. Everything, even genocide is allowed to friends of the US, and EVERYTHING, even outright lies is good enough to discredit those who oppose U.S. domination.

 

 

Saakashvili eats own tie

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YDm9cMG_j9Y

[Paranoid Marvin]

Saakashvili eats own tie

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YDm9cMG_j9Y

 

Haha, brilliant!

It's almost the sort of thing you'd expect Bush to do

[apowerr]

@iTiger: Great post bud, I couldn't stand the biased media coverage we received stateside.

[(MoC)]

@iTiger: Great post bud, I couldn't stand the biased media coverage we received stateside.

 

Yeah agreed..

[m16]

Noooo. I guess Georgia was spending 70% of its funds on military because the president had a hobby of driving tanks.

1. Increasing the size and spendings of a military has nothing to do with starting a war with Russia.

2. Do you have any proof Georgia spends 70% of its funds on a army of less than 40,000 troups

3. Russia has one of the biggest militaries in the world and is one of the biggest spenders and suppliers of military weapons.

 

South Ossetia is really a de-facto independent country since 1989. They already had one war with Georgia in early 90-s (without Russia intervening) and proved that their independence will not be taken from them.

 

Although officially and de-jure they are a part of Georgia (according to old soviet maps), de-facto they are another country.

 

90% of the population is Ossetian and not Georgian. More than a half of them have Russian citizenship.

 

Georgia (a country with the most powerful military after Russia in the region -- invaded South Ossetia and started conducting genocide on its own citizens (!) for several hours as well as killing 12 Russian peace-keepers in the process BEFORE Russia intervened. 1 400 civilians were killed by the Georgian forces BEFORE Russian army entered Georgia. And at least 600 after.

 

Then there was fighting for several days, and it seems that now (after Russia defended the South Ossetian people) the war is over. Russia withdrew its troops from Georgia proper yesterday and now its workers and peace-keepers are re-building South Ossetia.

 

The Western media (specially CNN and BBC) have never mentioned that it was Georgia who attacked first and literally leveled South Ossetia to the ground.

 

They haven't said that Russian troops have the international jurisdiction to be in South Ossetia as peace-keepers. And what they did (namely, stopped the genocide of Ossetians) WAS what they should have done according to international laws, regulations and jurisdictions.

 

Why does the West cheer on when Kosovo separated from Serbia but condemns South Ossetia and Abkhazia when they try to do the same to avoid being EXTERMINATED as a people?

 

Why does the West cheer when Bush attacks Iraq to plunder its resources and shows fake indignation when Russia intervenes into DE-FACTO independent South Ossetia for humanitarian purposes?

 

I tell you why -- double standards. Everything, even genocide is allowed to friends of the US, and EVERYTHING, even outright lies is good enough to discredit those who oppose U.S. domination.

 

 

Saakashvili eats own tie

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YDm9cMG_j9Y

Ok iTiger where are you from. You either never read western news or live under a rock if your from the "west"

1. Western media has reported that Georgia attacked first. It has also been reported that Georgia has suffered major infrastructure losses and that their are many refugees Its absurd for you to think that the West doe not have reliable independent media while Russia has almost no opposition media. Western media has also reported South Ossetia is a defacto independent country. However it isn't recognized by any country, not even Russia. Every country in the world recognized Georgias claim over it until a week ago when Russia decided to humiliate a neighbor.

2. Humanitarian purpaces??? If you really believe that you need to wake up. Russia did this to flex their military muscles and scare NATO. Russia wants to reassert its influence over the former territories in the USSR which are now increasingly "defecting" to NATO.

3. It has been reported by RUSSIANS that ethnic cleansing is going on in south ossetia by the ossetians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/eu...amp;oref=slogin

 

You know what the best part is? In this supposed humanitarian intervention Russia isn't even stopping murdering from happening. Russia officers admit ossetians are maundering ethnic georgian now. Heres a nice quote:

"We're not a police force, we're a military force," said a Russian lieutenant colonel in response to a reporter's question. "It's not our job to do police work." - this in response to ossetian rampaging against ethnic georgians.

4. Genocide? While it may me happening on a small scale Russia has clearly been exaggerating:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia

Russia estimates 2000 people are dead.

Yet 44 were brought to the morgue. Only 273 checked into hospitals. Russia is obviously exaggerating.

5. The majority of the "west" did not cheer on when the United States invaded Iraq. A large portion of Americans disagreed with it as well. Still, Iraq was a dictatorship. Georgia is a free country.

6. More on Genocide - their is no proof whatsoever about the Georgian military intentionally killing Ossetian civillians - at least none that has been independently confirmed.

On the other hand - their is lots of proof that serbia massacred its own citizens. In Kosovo their was probable reason for NATO to think Serbia was up to something (bosnia genocide). In South Ossetia their is no proof of a genocide. I think it is quite clear that retaking South Ossetia was done for politcal reasons to extend Georgias influence.

 

Their is always a little bias in reporting but it is absurd to think Russian reports are better sources of information than international news organizations like Reuters and the Associated press. Russia isn't even considered a free county by most western people.

 

You are also blatantly lying or ignorant.

 

The Kremlin has not pulled out its troops and it certainly did not yesterday

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world/eu.../17georgia.html

[sxjthefirst]

I wrote about this on my blog

------

 

The worrying thing to me is how similar these tactics are to that of Nazi Germany's take over of Czechoslovakia.

Step 1: Incite a group of local followers. Like ethnic Germans in Sudetenland here the Ossetians were supported and encouraged by Russia.

Step 2: Misuse the principle of self-determination.

Step 3: All this in the background of a bad global economy. Depression then, oil crisis now. Which seems to makes people sympathetic to extremist movements.

 

Prepare for World War 3 my friends. Reinforce that bunker your grandparents hid under.

 

Viva la Resistance! or if I am on the other side: Viva la anti-Resistance!

--------

On a serious note do you think the US is the ONLY country interested in controlling the world events. Russia and increasingly China (think Sudan) are also extending their influence. This is not a movie with one villain and the rest of the characters being innocent. The unipolar world is coming to a end and we are returning to a multipolar world.

 

Not too long ago Japan massacred 1000s in Asia. Not too long ago Belgium nearly wiped out the population of Congo. Not too long ago the Catholic church launched Inquisitions. It's the nature of the power.

[Paranoid Marvin]

1. Increasing the size and spendings of a military has nothing to do with starting a war with Russia.

2. Do you have any proof Georgia spends 70% of its funds on a army of less than 40,000 troups

3. Russia has one of the biggest militaries in the world and is one of the biggest spenders and suppliers of military weapons.

 

 

Ok iTiger where are you from. You either never read western news or live under a rock if your from the "west"

1. Western media has reported that Georgia attacked first. It has also been reported that Georgia has suffered major infrastructure losses and that their are many refugees Its absurd for you to think that the West doe not have reliable independent media while Russia has almost no opposition media. Western media has also reported South Ossetia is a defacto independent country. However it isn't recognized by any country, not even Russia. Every country in the world recognized Georgias claim over it until a week ago when Russia decided to humiliate a neighbor.

2. Humanitarian purpaces??? If you really believe that you need to wake up. Russia did this to flex their military muscles and scare NATO. Russia wants to reassert its influence over the former territories in the USSR which are now increasingly "defecting" to NATO.

3. It has been reported by RUSSIANS that ethnic cleansing is going on in south ossetia by the ossetians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/eu...amp;oref=slogin

 

You know what the best part is? In this supposed humanitarian intervention Russia isn't even stopping murdering from happening. Russia officers admit ossetians are maundering ethnic georgian now. Heres a nice quote:

"We're not a police force, we're a military force," said a Russian lieutenant colonel in response to a reporter's question. "It's not our job to do police work." - this in response to ossetian rampaging against ethnic georgians.

4. Genocide? While it may me happening on a small scale Russia has clearly been exaggerating:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia

Russia estimates 2000 people are dead.

Yet 44 were brought to the morgue. Only 273 checked into hospitals. Russia is obviously exaggerating.

5. The majority of the "west" did not cheer on when the United States invaded Iraq. A large portion of Americans disagreed with it as well. Still, Iraq was a dictatorship. Georgia is a free country.

6. More on Genocide - their is no proof whatsoever about the Georgian military intentionally killing Ossetian civillians - at least none that has been independently confirmed.

On the other hand - their is lots of proof that serbia massacred its own citizens. In Kosovo their was probable reason for NATO to think Serbia was up to something (bosnia genocide). In South Ossetia their is no proof of a genocide. I think it is quite clear that retaking South Ossetia was done for politcal reasons to extend Georgias influence.

 

Their is always a little bias in reporting but it is absurd to think Russian reports are better sources of information than international news organizations like Reuters and the Associated press. Russia isn't even considered a free county by most western people.

 

You are also blatantly lying or ignorant.

 

The Kremlin has not pulled out its troops and it certainly did not yesterday

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world/eu.../17georgia.html

 

It's interesting M16, your viewpoint seems to reflect the dominant view of most western media. That is, Russia is the bad guy, end of story.

 

The trouble is, western media isn't always completely unbiased, so I wouldn't be so sure about your view...

[Descalzo]

Sorry I got here late.

 

But for those of you who were suggesting that the UN take care of this, I just wanted to make you aware that Russia has veto power over the UN Security Council.

 

Also, if Georgia were part of NATO, Russia would probably not be doing this. However, this doesn't mean I support Georgia's bid to join NATO. It also doesn't mean I don't support it. I'm undecided.

 

 

It's interesting M16, your viewpoint seems to reflect the dominant view of most western media. That is, Russia is the bad guy, end of story.

It sounded to me like he was pointing out that Western Media had indeed reported on this.

 

 

The trouble is, western media isn't always completely unbiased, so I wouldn't be so sure about your view...

Hey, I agree that Western Media isn't always completely unbiased. As soon as you find me a news source that IS unbiased, let us know.

[m16]

It's interesting M16, your viewpoint seems to reflect the dominant view of most western media. That is, Russia is the bad guy, end of story.

 

The trouble is, western media isn't always completely unbiased, so I wouldn't be so sure about your view...

To me it sounds like iTiger's source of knowledge is ignoring common knowledge in the West.

 

Russia had been playing a game of chicken with Georgia before Georgia attacked south ossetia. Moscow was increasing troups in North Ossetia and running military exercises. It also started flying over Georgia with fighter jets. If that isn't a provocation I don't know what is. Putin has expressed his dismay with Saakashvili and his desire to oust him from power.... Right now Russian troops are 25 miles from the capital of Georgia.

 

Right now Russia is running a propoganda show. They are claiming they need time to protect south ossettia... meanwhile the georgian army has surrendered and ossetians are looting in south ossetia. Russia claims that their have been 2000 ossetian civilians dead intentionally... yet barely 1/50th of that has been confirmed by the WHO.

 

Could their have been been a small problem? Maybe... but Russia continues to bully Georgia by advancing further into Georgia (25 miles from capital) and continuing to blow infrastructure up... after signing a ceasefire. It is hard to think Moscow is fighting a noble cause. The more logical though it that Moscow wants to oust the democratically elected leader of Georgia, Sasskashvili. This is disturbing. Russia has also been conducting cyber attacks against Georgia and Estonia. Russia is starting to look like a nationalistic imperialistic country.

 

I completely support Georgia joining NATO. If Iceland can be in NATO surely a small democratic county like Georgia can join. The west needs to support democracies...

[fatshitcat]

Step 2: Misuse the principle of self-determination.

Step 3: All this in the background of a bad global economy. Depression then, oil crisis now. Which seems to makes people sympathetic to extremist movements.

 

It' funny USA has been doing that for a while....

 

2. Do you have any proof Georgia spends 70% of its funds on a army of less than 40,000 troups

 

OK, OK, I exaggerated.

 

However there still is something. Then why did Georgia increase its military funds so abruptly?

To finance the program, the government has proposed amending the 2007 budget to allow for a 430 million-lari (about $259.6 million) increase in state spending. Most of that hike will go to military spending, which would amount to up to 4.5 percent of the Gross National Product, Prime Minister Zurab Noghaideli stated.

(source:eurasianet.org)

[m16]

Georgia may have increased its funds out of necessity. Maybe it wanted modernize its weapons. It probably had this invasion on its mind too. Since you didn't post a link to the article I need to judge this by a tiny snippet but it seems that this was only a one year increase.

 

A sovereign democracy dealing with secessionists is no reason for an invasion though.

 

What makes these ossetians so great anyway? Right now it seems they are taking advantage of Georgian citizens.

 

I don't get you russian sympathizers... its obvious russia has been war mongering by providing ossetians russian passports, dropping sanctions against them and provoking georgia with military exercises and flybys over georgia...

 

all of you should read this:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1832699,00.html

[fatshitcat]

I'm not a Russian sympathizer, I just think Russia made a somewhat right decision.

That whole region is rather unstable and prone to civil wars, so imho Russia may bombed a region, but it may have saved the region from several civil wars in other states. Remember, these states may be extremely poor, but they still have some ex-soviet military units that together with the unstable politics make them a potentially dangerous cocktail.

[iTiger]

Ok iTiger where are you from.

To me it sounds like iTiger's source of knowledge is ignoring common knowledge in the West.

 

I from Russia/Osetia/Vladikavkaz...

I watch BBC World. I read The Times. I speak with journalists from S. Osetia. I speak with the refugees from S. Osetia.

The truth only in the West? :-)

 

PS. The budget of the Georgian army $1 billion. What for?

 

___

 

Photo Arkady Babchenko from S. Osetia 10.08.08 - 13.08.08 (Tskhinvali/Zemo-Nikozi/road to Gori):

[m16]

I'm not a Russian sympathizer, I just think Russia made a somewhat right decision.

That whole region is rather unstable and prone to civil wars, so imho Russia may bombed a region, but it may have saved the region from several civil wars in other states. Remember, these states may be extremely poor, but they still have some ex-soviet military units that together with the unstable politics make them a potentially dangerous cocktail.

Georgia would have been able to take back South Ossetia if it wasn't for Russia. A country of 4 million people would certainly be able to contain a small area (ossetia) that has a population less of my "city" in the US.

 

I agree that the region is unstable, but it is because of Russia. Russia is supplying the breakaway regions with support and ammunition.

 

iTiger, what justifies russia invading? Your pictures are pretty much useless because none are labeled.Why do you think the west is hiding facts? What am I missing? Do you think dumping a bunch of pictures will help you win a debate?

[iTiger]

I agree that the region is unstable, but it is because of Russia. Russia is supplying the breakaway regions with support and ammunition.

Speak on the TV? :-)

 

PS. sponsor of war of the USA!

[m16]

No, I don't watch TV. I get my news from the associated press and reuters.

 

Criticizing the US doesn't change the fact the Russia is also war mongering. And you need to wake up man. The United States does not equal the west.

 

You need to have respect for this debate too. In the west (intelligent) people don't mock peoples opinions without logic or reason behind it.

 

Are you saying Russia does nothing to help breakaway regions? Russia doesn't arm them? Russia doesn't give them passports?

 

Obviously Russia felt it had enough at steak in Ossetia to invade...

 

As for being hypocritical.... you say the United States is a sponsor of war.. Russia and the US are currently trading places as the top weapons producers in the world.... Most of the west supports the US over russia though because the US is not as corrupt as Russia and the US has free elections and high human rights/press freedoms...Also the US hasn't invaded a democratic country in hundreds of years...